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09-23-2009, 05:02 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfotog Quote
Actual image size for Pentax 67 according to Pentax... 55 x 70
Image size for 645 ( as I remember)...41.5 x 56

None of the cameras listed as 6x6 or 6x7 or 6x4.5 are actually that size. 56mm is the maximum usable width of 120/220 film.
Ok, thank you.

I'm sorry for all the questions, but I've never used these big cameras, and it's a lot of money for me But I do have yet another.

Is there a big difference in how the Pentax 67 and the Pentax 6x7 is in use? I ask, cause the offers I have available are 67, 6x7 and a 645N.

09-23-2009, 05:39 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by netrex Quote
Thank you all for the replies. I want the big size of the 67 of course, so I'm pondering about what to do and what I can afford.

How big is the actual exposed area of the film for both 67 and 645? Is it exactly 6x7 cm and 4.5x6 cm, or less?
Hey, that's answered in the article I referenced above, Which Medium Film Format?

6x7 is 5670mm and 645 is 5642mm.

The ratios of the film/sensor diagonals can be used as a metric of image quality. In that same article there's a table I can summarise here in terms of film sizes:
6x9 : 6x7 : 6x6 : 645 : 35mm : APS-C
3.6 : 3.2 : 2.8 : 2.5 : 1.5 : 1.0

The 645 format gets a 250% increase over APS-C. 6x7 gets 320%. For me, the portability and usability advantages of 645 won out. It just wasn't worth going up to 6x7 for the incremental improvement.

But you won't know if it's worth it for you until you shoot and print some photos.

Heck, there's always 4x5.
09-23-2009, 06:03 PM   #18
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Yeah, I really do want a 4x5 :P The Tachihara I'll get this later hopefully

I will read the the article you've linked to, I'm sorry, I forgot about it first.
09-23-2009, 10:27 PM   #19
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The 6x7 and 67 are virtually identical in operation. Be aware that parts availability might be a problem with the 6x7 as that's the older model. Avoid the 6x7 that has no mirror lock up, that's the very first body. All cameras involve some kind of compromise. For me the 6x7 format is the best compromise. Wide range of lenses, and with a B&W film like Rollei ATP, results that rival large format. If only they made a tilt lens for landscapes.

09-24-2009, 10:30 AM   #20
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Someone other than Pentax makes a tilt lens for the 6x7. It even has a wide and telephoto adapter. It has a f/2.0 as well! Yes, the Lensbaby folks used to make one for the Pentax 6x7 mount, they just discontinued it.

I recently got one with all available accessories. It is quite unique and quite a departure for me, so I am learning how to use it.

For a better optical option for tilt on medium format, the Fuji GX680 series has some camera models that offer this feature - so all your GX680 lenses can make use of it.
09-24-2009, 12:15 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by yurihuta Quote
I recently got one with all available accessories. It is quite unique and quite a departure for me, so I am learning how to use it.
Sweet. I have to use my 4x5 when I need these features. It would be nice to use my 67 for that as well. The 4x5 can also tilt/swing the film plane too which is extra but how good is the image circle on the tilt lens you have? Do you have any pictures of it?
09-24-2009, 01:40 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
The 6x7 basically requires MLU whereas you can shoot the 645 from the hip, as it were. That made my mind up, since I do not always carry a tripod. As said above, the 645 is not much different than a full-frame digital with grip. I find it quite ok to hold, surprisingly.

I am new to medium format. You might wish to follow my ongoing series of blog articles:

Thinking Outside The Frame: Sensor Sizes Explained
Which Medium Film Format?
Medium Format Priorities And The Mamiya RZ 67
Comparing Medium Format Lenses
Ahh, the myth of the 6x7. You CAN shoot handheld without locking up the mirror. Trust me, I've been doing it for years.

I also distinctly recall a documentary show in the 90's behind the scenes of a swimwear shoot. May have even been Sports Illustrated and the photographer was a well known name at the time, although I can't think of his name for the life of me. Anyway, he was shown snapping away on the beach with two 67II bodies, without using mirror lockup. His assistant would swap bodies with him once he reached the end of a roll, and he would continue to shoot with the other body while the assistant reloaded the film in the other one. It was pretty cool how fast he was flicking the shutter advance and firing away rolls within seconds of all the swimsuit models.

He was also using the camera turned in portrait mode, as I often do and one of the reasons I prefer the 6x7 negative over the 645. I like getting pure 8x10's. I wish it was on Youtube or I could find the footage somewhere, so we can post it in this medium format section and put the "handholdings of the 67 bodies myth" to rest.

There was also this post in another thread about how this guy shot with the 400mm lens handheld on his 6x7.
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/646956-post10.html

It still amazes me how many people believe you can't handhold these cameras. I mean, the first versions never even had mirror lock up and people used them!

Last edited by K-9; 09-24-2009 at 01:54 PM.
09-24-2009, 02:57 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by K-9 Quote
Ahh, the myth of the 6x7. You CAN shoot handheld without locking up the mirror. Trust me, I've been doing it for years.
Psst, quiet. Don't tell everyone.

Your story reminds me of one I saw many years ago. A behind the scenes for Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition. Three photographers were hired and sent to different parts of the World and they followed their action.

One was hilarious. This guy was on a beach shooting a model running in the surf. He had some fully auto 35mm that could do, oh 3 or 4 fps I guess. Anyway, that's what he did. He shot a 3-4fps movie at 36 frame intervals with assistants handing him one camera after the next.

He even tripped and fell into the surf with is camera at one point. The assistants did all the work of setting up lighting and cameras. He just looked through it and pushed a button. Wow, I thought, what photographic skills.

Why didn't he just get a 70mm movie camera, film her, develop it and frame grab the "perfect shot" at an even better 24fps resolution, lol.
.


Last edited by tuco; 09-26-2009 at 05:11 PM.
09-24-2009, 05:08 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by K-9 Quote
Ahh, the myth of the 6x7. You CAN shoot handheld without locking up the mirror. Trust me, I've been doing it for years.
Ah yes, I know you can do it. But it all comes down to how easy it is. Not as easy as 645 for sure. Both formats have their advantages.
09-24-2009, 07:54 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
Psst, quite. Don't tell everyone.

Your story reminds me of one I saw many years ago. A behind the scenes for Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition. Three photographers were hired and sent to different parts of the World and they followed their action.

One was hilarious. This guy was on a beach shooting a model running in the surf. He had some fully auto 35mm that could do, oh 3 or 4 fps I guess. Anyway, that's what he did. He shot a 3-4fps movie at 36 frame intervals with assistants handing him one camera after the next.

He even tripped and fell into the surf with is camera at one point. The assistants did all the work of setting up lighting and cameras. He just looked through it and pushed a button. Wow, I thought, what photographic skills.

Why didn't he just get a 70mm movie camera, film her, develop it and frame grab the "perfect shot" at an even better 24fps resolution, lol.
.
OK, and now your story reminds me of another SI thing I saw one year, where the photographers were using medium format cameras during the behind the scenes shoot, and then when the issue hit the newstands, it looked like the shots were taken with a 35mm Vivitar body with 800 speed film. Somehow, during the printing stage, the photos looked very grainy and nothing like a professional quality from a medium format camera. All that professional work only to release it in a shoddy print quality mag.

I also remember how SI sends everyone (models and photographers) to exotic locales around the world, and lots of times the shots end up with simple beach backgrounds that could have been taken at a Delaware state beach. Just think of all the money blown on shoots like that.
09-25-2009, 09:50 AM   #26
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For tilt and swing movements on the 67 there is the Zork (Zoerk in Europe) Multi-Focus System. It uses enlarger lenses--mine is the Rodenstock APO 105mm version, and they offer a few others too. They offer a shift board for it too, but I don't have (or need) that. The tilt/swing unit works very nicely and has the added benefit for me that enlarger lenses tend to minimize contrast so as not to overdo it when reproducing prints. Well, combined with contrasty Velvia film, the enlarger lens works nicely to "moderate" the Velvia in landscape situations. I like it and recommend it.

Also, by simply adapting a 58mm multi-element APO Pentax close up filter for the 645 system to the 40.5mm front element of the Rodenstock lens with a step up ring, I now have a macro with tilt and swing movements. It goes to lifesize with depth of field "from here to eternity."

Then add a 67 lens to K mount body adapter and the whole shebang works on my Pentax digital bodies too, including 1:1 macro with tilt and swing.

The Zork product line is not cheap, but it is for real and very functional in the field. Perhaps too simplistic for some users--no numerical indexing, just move the lens to the tilt/swing you eyeball and like.

I also played around with a Fuji 680 system with movements, but found it to be a better studio camera than field camera and I shoot specifically to get out rather than to "hole up" in the studio, so I opted for the Zork/67II combo and have no regrets.
09-25-2009, 12:02 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
Psst, quite. Don't tell everyone.

Your story reminds me of one I saw many years ago. A behind the scenes for Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition. Three photographers were hired and sent to different parts of the World and they followed their action.

One was hilarious. This guy was on a beach shooting a model running in the surf. He had some fully auto 35mm that could do, oh 3 or 4 fps I guess. Anyway, that's what he did. He shot a 3-4fps movie at 36 frame intervals with assistants handing him one camera after the next.

He even tripped and fell into the surf with is camera at one point. The assistants did all the work of setting up lighting and cameras. He just looked through it and pushed a button. Wow, I thought, what photographic skills.

Why didn't he just get a 70mm movie camera, film her, develop it and frame grab the "perfect shot" at an even better 24fps resolution, lol.
.
are you talking about this guy?
YouTube - Terry Richardson with Yashica T4
09-25-2009, 12:29 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ron Boggs Quote
For tilt and swing movements on the 67 there is the Zork (Zoerk in Europe) Multi-Focus System. It uses enlarger lenses--mine is the Rodenstock APO 105mm version, and they offer a few others too. They offer a shift board for it too, but I don't have (or need) that. The tilt/swing unit works very nicely and has the added benefit for me that enlarger lenses tend to minimize contrast so as not to overdo it when reproducing prints. Well, combined with contrasty Velvia film, the enlarger lens works nicely to "moderate" the Velvia in landscape situations. I like it and recommend it.

Also, by simply adapting a 58mm multi-element APO Pentax close up filter for the 645 system to the 40.5mm front element of the Rodenstock lens with a step up ring, I now have a macro with tilt and swing movements. It goes to lifesize with depth of field "from here to eternity."

Then add a 67 lens to K mount body adapter and the whole shebang works on my Pentax digital bodies too, including 1:1 macro with tilt and swing.

The Zork product line is not cheap, but it is for real and very functional in the field. Perhaps too simplistic for some users--no numerical indexing, just move the lens to the tilt/swing you eyeball and like.

I also played around with a Fuji 680 system with movements, but found it to be a better studio camera than field camera and I shoot specifically to get out rather than to "hole up" in the studio, so I opted for the Zork/67II combo and have no regrets.
Ron, how much does this zork thing cost? I'm in no position to get it any time soon, but would be nice to know for future plans...
09-25-2009, 01:41 PM   #29
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The Zork Mult-Focus System with Rodagon lens that I found used was (I think) $1100 U.S. and it shows use...The step up ring for macro diopter was around $15. The Pentax 58mm S56 close-up lens was in my kit, but was originally $75 used from KEH. I bought a 40.5mm circular polarizer for around $40 and a warming filter for about $25. I put it a felt draw-string fishing reel bag that I had on hand. Total cost shipped to me was around $1300 with all the goodies to shoot everything from lifesized macro up to grand scenics with exaggerated foreground. Note that the Rodagon 105mm lens is essentially a normal perspective lens.
New
Last time I went to the Zork website (a few days ago) the MFS with lens was something like $2200 for the 67. Shift unit (which I don't have) was extra but I can't recall how much. The Zork version of the macro adapter and macro diopter runs another $500ish. Realistically, by the time you get a few accessories and such you will flirt with $3000. That may sound outrageously high, however, if you buy a Canon or Nikon tilt/shift lens for digi bodies, it will run you $1500 to $2000 U.S. and not include true macro capabilities like the accessorized Zork, plus it won't be medium format capable. Taken comparitively to those smaller format tilt/shifts, I don't consider Zork to be overpriced at all. Pricey? YES. Overpriced? NO.

Note that the Zork website in English lists many other converters to adapt their products to fit many different camera systems. It's probably worth a gawk if you are interested...I'd link it for you if I knew how...(tech dummy).

Last edited by Ron Boggs; 09-25-2009 at 01:52 PM.
09-25-2009, 03:46 PM   #30
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Ron, Stop tempting me with your stories of the Zoerk MFS! Doing a lot of closeup/macro work this summer made me realize how much I could use tilt for that work.
But geez, I've spent enough this summer already. I suppose i could go the cheaper route and just buy the MFS w/o the 105 APO Rodagon and look for a cheaper used enlarger lens. I don't need infinity focus, it would strictly be for closeup work.
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