Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
39 Likes  
A LITTLE BIT OF HISTORY: Development of the solenoid in Pentax cameras
Posted By: photogem, 06-27-2019, 01:50 AM

A little bit of history about the development of the solenoid in Pentax cameras up to the K-70:

The legendary patent named "Automatic Camera Shutter" was applied for July 30, 1968 and granted Jan. 4th, 1972.

You can down load the patent HERE


1. The first very simple solenoid I have found in the Pentax ME and ME-Super.

No permanent magnet yet but only a plunger and an electro-magnet to induce the magnetic force to pull the plunger:



It was in 1983 that Pentax introduced its first SLR which offered fully automatic exposure ("program") mode when coupled with a matching Pentax-A series lens:
The Pentax Super-A (Super Program), followed by the Program Plus (Program-A) in 1984.



This was the first time solenoids where used the way we know it until today up to the Pentax K-70.

2. A very nicely built and sophisticated solenoid:





Not yet a rare-earth-magnet as later used but an alnico-magnet, i.e. an alloy mainly of al-uminium, ni-ckel, co-balt, invented by T.Mishima 1931 in Japan:


Backside:


The solenoid in action:





The force of this alnico magnet pulled a kind of cap connected to the leaver which moved the aperture-mechanism and kept it in place.
Taking a picture, the two coils acting as an electro-magnet receive 3 Volts DC from the cameras battery ( 2 x 1,5V SR44 or 1 x 3-V CR1108).
Those 2 coils cancelled the magnetic force of the permanent magnet and the top-cap opened, the leaver moved. Impedance was 14,3 ohms.


The electro-magnetic coils:


The partnumber given was G-100:


This partnumber G-100 remained the same at least up to the Pentax K20D and K200D, possibly later on as well but I have not yet seen a service manual of those.
Samsung named it G-100 as well in the GX1, GX2, GX10 and GX20.


The next solenoid as we know it was introduced in some the MZ-Series (MZ50, MZ6, MZ7 and a few others up to the 35mm Pentax *ist).
This Solenoid was manufactured by Shinmei Electric Co., Tomioko-Cho, Futaba-gun, Fukushima, Japan (see 3.a) and by TDK, Japan (see 3.b)
Those solenoids were also sold to ALPS and Matsushita.


This first SLR Shinmei and TDK solenoids look identical to the later DSLR made in Japan versions and had the same impedance.
This solenoid was driven with 6V/DC (rated with 4,5V/DC) by the solenoid-driver, impuls-voltage was 6.45V.
Thus the holding-force and body thickness were slightly different and sometimes with opposite polarity. It is not recommended to use it.


3. a) Here a photo showing the 3.rd version of a solenoid, this one I took from a MZ50 tested in a K30:

One can see, the plunger tilts slightly in relation to the round part of the leaver which it moves.

The next drawing shows this early SLR solenoid (i.e. not yet DSLR!):


It has 3.4mm bobbin-size (versus 4mm bobbin-size for the later DSLR-solenoids).

Data Japan-made "SLR" solenoid:
- Operating Voltage DC: 3 - 6V
- Coilresistance: 30 ohms
- Attraction force: 2,2 N min
- Backtension: 0,8 N
- Operating stroke: 2mm


3.b) To make things more complicated, Pentax also used a white Japan made SLR solenoid made by TDK:


The early introduced MA-307-9 was developed for 3-6V use (2 x CR2 /900mA) = so for the 35mm SLR Pentax of the MZ/XZ-Series!

And most important: The bobbin thickness was 4m and not 3,2mm as the Shinmei-version. So even more difficult to differentiate from the DLSR version!

Later they introduced the MA-307-26 für 3,7-6,5V (2 x CRV3/3300mA!) = DSLR *istDS/DL, K10D

What can be seen very cleary is the difference in holding-force (attracting force) and return-force (back-tension)


4. A very different solenoid was used in many other MZ/ZX such as the MZ5 bodies:





4. With the introduction of the Pentax *ist D came the "made in Japan" white DSLR solenoid which never failed in any of those bodies up to the Pentax K-r:


The manufacturer of those solenoids remained Shinmei, Japan and manufacture was in Japan.


The next drawing shows that this new introduced Shinmei Japan solenoid for DSLR bodies had now a 4mm bobbin-size instead of 3.4mm:



As mentioned, this difference of 0.6mm is hardly noticable but this is why aside from another small difference in holding-force and often opposite polarisation the early SLR solenoids with 3.4mm bobbin-size sit slightly bent when installed into a DSLR body!
This DSLR Solenoid had a live-timespan of remarkable 100.000 actuations but lasts actually much longer.


Data Japan-made "DSLR" Solenoid:
- Operating Voltage DC: 3,6 - 7,2 V- Coilresistance: 30 ohms
- Attraction force: 2,5 N min
- Backtension: 1,0 N
- Operating stroke: 2mm

According to an engineer who worked for Pentax and with teams designing cameras (I have the email from him as prove)as well according to a Ricoh representative from France the material used was a mix of PTFE's (Teflon) and thus it could be injection molded. I cannot guarantee this to be the case but there is no reason not to believe specialists.



5. Green-China-Solenoid

When Shinmei moved production to China, difficulties started!
Shinmei was now the sole provider to Ricoh for Pentax DSLR cameras!

Manufacturing place was now in Shanghai. Problems due to saving costs arised, such as bad pay and bad treatment of workers

Manufacture in Tomioka, Japan, stopped earlier on but the plant itself was finally shut-down in 2010.
This means not more manufacturing possible in Japan.


The material of the body changed to the green colour and instead of using a mix of different PTFE's (teflon) it was now made out of PET.

The alloy of the plunger changed as well.

PTFE (teflon) is a very good bearing material, it is used as well for bearings in turntables. This bearing was patented by W. Firebough. He describes the bearing very well in This interview. I could verify the amazing bearing qualities myself. When one inspects a heavy used Japan-solenoid closer against one made in China, one can tell the difference, PET is worn off much quicker.

This China made solenoid was first used in the flash circuit of the Pentax K100D (year 2006), K100D, K200D, K-m, K-x and K-r (until year 2011) but as far as I know mainly in those delivered to Europe. So a testing period of 5 years without any failure.

Rated voltage was now 3,7 - 7.5V (impuls 8.32V) but live-time was drastically lower: 20.000 actuations.

Data China-made solenoid
- Operating Voltage DC: 3,7 - 7,5V
- Coilresistance: 30 ohms
- Attraction force: 2,8 - 3,0 N min
- Backtension: 1,2 N
- Operating stroke: 2mm


Here you can see the measurements on a Pentax K-30


The next drawing shows the datasheet of the green China-solenoid:

The dashed (----) line shows the 30ohms version used for Pentax. The lower live-time of 20.000 actuations is due to PET instead of PTFE used in the early Japansolenoid.

Some claim (without prove, because it cannot be proven) that the voltage used for the Chinasolenoid would be more in the region of 2.5V because it releases smoothly at 2.5V. That's a lot of nonsense because none, the early Japan made SLR, the next Japan made DSLR solenoid nor the China made version work well with just 2,5V/DC! They kind of work with 3V but are driven with 6V in the SLR Pentax cameras and 7.2V in the DSLR Pentax cameras.
If one studies the curve for holding-force one can see this very clearly! I have done tests with 3V, 6V and 7.2 Volts. Measuring release-time (and thus holding-force) can be done from 5V - 9V. If one compares different solenoids it just is important that the applied voltage is the same for all solenoids one compares! The applied Vpp since the Pentax *ist-D is exactly 8.32VDC. Earlier pre DSLR bodies such as the MZ50 had 6VppDC.

The solenoid is driven by a transistor (BJT/SOT23) and protected by a simple diode.


While the China-made solenoid was tested in the flash-circuit, the solenoid used for aperture-control remained still the white made in Japan unit!
This test-period went on for about 6 years (the K100D was introduced 2006, the K-30 introduced 6 years later in 2012).
So 6 years without trouble, enough time to use it for the aperture control.

This photo shows the green China solenoid for the pop-up-flash in a K200D:



And here built out:




This change to manufacture in China turned out to be the beginning of difficulties due to several reasons described here as well
and led to a problem now known as:

ABF = Aperture Block Failure (also named: "dark-image-syndrome" or "dark exposure problems")

The plunger of this solenoid suddenly didn't release anymore but remained stuck! The diaphragm/blades/aperture of the lens could not open and
thus particular wide open and low f-stops (f1.4 / 1.7 / up to f 8) resulted in totally underexposed pictures, almost dark/black. If one changed to fully closed (such as f22) one gets a normal exposed picture.

For quite a long time it was not yet clear that the cultprit was just the solenoid!

The complete "diaphragm-control-block" was exchanged or possibly just the whole camera because exchange of the block was very work + time intensive. But then due to all the research mainly here in this forum (!) Ricoh/Pentax realized that it was just the solenoid itself.

It was about Dec. 2015 that Ricoh started to modify the solenoid which we now call the

6. "2.nd generation China-Solenoid":

But quite a lot KS-1's, K-S2's and many K-50's and all K-500's still used the earlier 1.st generation China-made green solenoid because they were manufactured prior Dec.2015! Thus quite a lot of them failed and do still fail.

This is mainly due to fact that the metal body + plunger of the China-Solenoid is made out of relatively higher coercivity material:
It thus retains its magnetism after the field strength is removed!


This also explains why in many cases ABF happens more to those Pentax bodies which hadn't been used for a longer period and/or those with a low shuttercount (a low shuttercount implies little use anyway up to the case of two NOS Pentax bodies which I repaired, they hadn't been used at all but cought ABF, so the best proof for this explanation which I got from a forum-member who is a Chartered Electrical Engineer with Nuclear Electric.

It is very simple: When the Pentax is not used the plunger sits all the time near the permanent magnet and the magnetized body.
No use will enhance the "glueing effect", i.e. the solenoid sticking inside the body.
Regular use is no guarantee but it is clear and researched that ABF happens less often.

!!! The holding force of this 2.nd generation China-Solenoid was still stronger compared to the Japan-made Solenoid !!!
and it does not fire as quick.


Close-up photos of the solenoid used in the K-70 show now a very nicely machined plunger with a smoother surface:



Very different to the surface of a solenoid modified by filing or sanding:

The surface of the alloy which is hurt by sanding or filing starts to corrode and can actually rust pretty bad.


So due to the still stronger holding-force and the alloy
it turned out that this 2.nd generation China-made solenoid wasn't perfect yet!


ABF happened less but there were still reports of K-70's failing.

Some repairshops tried to deflect from the true cause (the solenoid) and invented a socalled "resistor-chip" which now would fail and cause the solenoid to stop working correctly. We had some hot heated discussions about it, it turned out to be a fairytale and the repairshops quickly stopped "exchanging resistorchips".


6. Fake Solenoids (but recommended by their sellers to be suitable for Pentax = Fake facts)

a) Meanwhile more and more green solenoids turned up on ebay, ali-express etc.
If purchased in quantities via alibaba China one single solenoid was just a few cents, BUT:
Those are even inferior and were NOT MADE FOR DSLR but for Lenovo DVD-drives:


You can see, the 2 pins facing sideways are missing!

The permanent magnet is longer and stronger and thus they have a way too strong holding force!

They were constructed for a very simple "press-button-open-tray" circuit


Beware of those by all means!


b) Beware of Blue-coloured China-Solenoids from ROM-Drives:

Wrong impedance (15ohms)! Danger of exodus for the "solenoid-driver".


c) And of course:Beware of green solenoids which are filed/sanded!

Further information why you should avoid this you can study HERE

d) Some sellers on ebay offer white Japan solenoids which actually are SLR solenoids, no matter if 4mm bobbin-size made by TDK!
See 3.b)


Further Warnings: (based on long-time and verified studies)

- Lubing: Beware of any attempt to lube the plunger of the solenoid!
Even very thougthful attemps or rubbing graphite-powder into the plunger didn't solve it.
WORST Scenario I ever came across was to spray contact-cleaner or similar stuff from HERE, i.e. the mirror-box towards the region of the solenoid. You don't want to spray anything inside your camera, most sprays contain oily ingredients such as naphta or petroleum together with fast evaporating ingredients to make it dry quickly. The worst that can happen is if such stuff comes into contact with the mirror or hinged submirror, damping material for the mirror, the shuttercurtain of your sensor.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


With the Pentax K7 Pentax introduced a stepper-motor instead of a solenoid. This demands a different powersupply, more current from the battery, extra space within the body, i.e. the body has to be larger plus some weight. This stepper-motor was used in the K7, K5, K3, KP and K1.

Size comparison of the stepper motor on its board against the solenoid:



7. GOOD NEWS:
3.rd generation green China-solenoid used since Jan. 2021 in the K-70
and of course now the KF:



Shinmei changed the size of the magnet, it is again shorter and thus has less magnetic power.

Here you can see all 3 stages of the China-solenoid (plus the very bad Lenovo solenoid on the right side):



So we have 3 steps of the China-made green solenoid used since the K-30 in the aperture block:


- Verson 1: The non-modified version as we know it was used until Dec. 2012, less clear defined dimple in the plunger

- Version 2: The 1.st modification as used since Dec. 2012 with a smaller magnet, changed alloy and clear defined dimple in the plunger

- Version 3: The 2.nd modification: Same alloy as in the 1.st modification but even shorter magnet (since Jan. 2021)








Last edited by photogem; 09-28-2023 at 06:17 AM. Reason: Latest info added by Photogem
Views: 40,379
12-28-2020, 09:13 AM - 1 Like   #46
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 673
QuoteOriginally posted by photogem Quote
Not really:
Larger bodies, more weight and more expensive.
Read here what I wrote about this issue:
Buying a new camera body - Page 4 - PentaxForums.com
But do you have evidence that the "Japan" solenoid is still in production?

---------- Post added 12-28-20 at 09:26 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by photogem Quote
It is not the technology which is wrong, it is just the solenoid which since China-manufacture was not perfected yet!
I keep hearing that it was slightly improved for the K-70, yet still fails, just not as quickly. The argument that Teflon should be used seems quite convincing, but I don't see evidence that Shinmei is willing to change materials or open a new production line for a Teflon solenoid - or that Ricoh is willing to shell out to make this happen for Shinmei, or take production into their own hands (patents?).

---------- Post added 12-28-20 at 10:06 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by photogem Quote
Larger bodies, more weight and more expensive.
Between the K-70 and KP, I'm struggling to find evidence of this. The KP weighs 703g with battery and card, the K-70 688g, a difference of 15 grams, or 2.1%. The KP may have a lighter flash unit (GN 6 rather than GN 12). Battery life almost exactly the same. The extra size of the KP is mostly in the prism housing, which has nothing to do with solenoid vs. stepping motor.

Do we know the unit cost of a solenoid vs. a motor?

12-28-2020, 11:24 AM   #47
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,520
Original Poster
This is not a thread of KP vs. K70.
This is a thread about the history of the solenoid within Pentax cameras.
So lets not continue this type of discussion here, if so, another thread.

Anyway:

I think we might see the K3III and can compare weight etc.
I have the KP but feel the K70 is better in my hands.
Optically I prefer the KP and I kept it against the K70 for other features.

QuoteOriginally posted by Breakfastographer Quote
But do you have evidence that the "Japan" solenoid is still in production?
Who claims this?
Not me!
03-04-2021, 09:31 PM - 1 Like   #48
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,520
Original Poster
Exact datas added, showing clearly the difference between:

- early SLR solenoid (made in Japan, white PTFE Body)
- DSLR solenoid (made in Japan, white PTFE Body)
- China made solenoid (green PET body)
03-05-2021, 05:37 PM   #49
Pentaxian
reh321's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: South Bend, IN, USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 23,177
QuoteOriginally posted by photogem Quote
Exact datas added, showing clearly the difference between:

-1. early SLR solenoid (made in Japan, white PTFE Body)
-2. DSLR solenoid (made in Japan, white PTFE Body)
-3. China made solenoid (green PET body)
and only cameras with the last one {#3} seem to have aperture control failures?

03-11-2021, 07:39 AM   #50
Pentaxian
Andrea K's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Rome, Italy
Posts: 822
Why the alternative solution is to use the AA batteries, where is possible, instead of the lithium one?
03-11-2021, 11:15 AM   #51
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,520
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
and only cameras with the last one {#3} seem to have aperture control failures?
No..... #1 as well but the opposite:

#1 = a bit to little holding force (compared to #2): Plunger slips sometimes to easely away from the permanent magnet: Overexposure
and.... it can lead to misalignement of the complex aperture/shutter/mirror-up mechanism!

#2= correct holding force: Never any failures

#3 = too strong holding force: Plunger sticks to the magnet, cannot release anymore: Underexposure


QuoteOriginally posted by Andrea K Quote
Why the alternative solution is to use the AA batteries, where is possible, instead of the lithium one?
This solution works only for a short time.
Not a permanent solution!
03-11-2021, 06:50 PM   #52
Pentaxian
reh321's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: South Bend, IN, USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 23,177
QuoteOriginally posted by Andrea K Quote
Why the alternative solution is to use the AA batteries, where is possible, instead of the lithium one?
The answer may be buried in photogem's last post

QuoteOriginally posted by photogem Quote
#3 = too strong holding force: Plunger sticks to the magnet, cannot release anymore: Underexposure
If AA batteries provide less 'drive' to the solenoid, the situation where it delivers "too strong holding force" may be delayed - but it is just delayed.
I got an AA holder almost as soon as I got my K-30 ...... but the failure did develop, so now I use the K-30 only on occasion, and then with a lens having an aperture ring so that I can control aperture at the lens, since the body can no longer control it - I am basically back to my first Pentax, a ME/SE, a true K-mount camera which had only what we now know as 'M' and 'Av' modes.


Last edited by reh321; 03-11-2021 at 06:58 PM.
03-11-2021, 10:36 PM   #53
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,520
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
The answer may be buried in photogem's last post
What is buried (i.e. hidden) in my last post?

QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
If AA batteries provide less 'drive' to the solenoid, the situation where it delivers "too strong holding force" may be delayed - but it is just delayed.
You forget, that from all Pentaxbodies with the green China-Solenoid only those can use AA batteries:


K-30
K-50
and
K-500


K-S1, K-S2 and K70 can't use AA's.


This thread is about the history/development of the solenoid in general.

AA batteries in the K30/K50 delay the problem but don't solve it!

For those who can do it, money is better spend for the solenoid and DIY

Last edited by photogem; 03-14-2021 at 01:08 AM. Reason: K500 added
03-12-2021, 04:33 AM   #54
Pentaxian
Andrea K's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Rome, Italy
Posts: 822
Also k-r supports AA batteries
03-12-2021, 05:14 AM   #55
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,520
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Andrea K Quote
Also k-r supports AA batteries
Yes, but the K-r has the Japansolenoid!


With the K-r you use Eneloops or similar for a different reason, the solenoid in the K-r never fails!


So it does not belong into this discussion regarding pushing a stuck green Chinasolenoid to some more life again.
03-12-2021, 06:44 PM   #56
Pentaxian
reh321's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: South Bend, IN, USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 23,177
QuoteOriginally posted by photogem Quote
What is buried (i.e. hidden) in my last post?
It is "hidden" because it is just a few words, so those few words can become 'lost' amongst so many total words.
03-13-2021, 01:27 AM   #57
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,520
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
It is "hidden" because it is just a few words, so those few words can become 'lost' amongst so many total words.
That's a lot of gobbledygock!

Andrea asked (I corrected it a bit so):
QuoteOriginally posted by Andrea K Quote
If one can, is using AA batteries instead of lithium a possibility?

My answer was very straight, clear and yes .... short, because no more useless words were needed:
QuoteOriginally posted by photogem Quote
This solution works only for a short time.
Not a permanent solution!

If Andrea would not understand, I'm sure: He would tell me.

So: I don't need spoonfeeding nor crutches
03-13-2021, 06:05 AM   #58
Pentaxian
reh321's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: South Bend, IN, USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 23,177
QuoteOriginally posted by photogem Quote
That's a lot of gobbledygock!

Andrea asked (I corrected it a bit so):

My answer was very straight, clear and yes .... short, because no more useless words were needed:


If Andrea would not understand, I'm sure: He would tell me.

So: I don't need spoonfeeding nor crutches
To my understanding, {of your original words} those gave the most accurate and concise answer to Andrea's question, a question which others may have wondered about as well.
We don't need even more words on the subject - you may add even more, but I am done.

Last edited by reh321; 03-13-2021 at 06:23 AM.
03-13-2021, 09:21 AM - 1 Like   #59
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 343
QuoteOriginally posted by photogem Quote
That's a lot of gobbledygock!

Andrea asked (I corrected it a bit so):



My answer was very straight, clear and yes .... short, because no more useless words were needed:



If Andrea would not understand, I'm sure: He would tell me.

So: I don't need spoonfeeding nor crutches
I admire your patience, as far as i can see : if not a completely new solenoid drops down from heaven there is nothing more to say. I fiollowed your recommandation and think of selling my kp, because fior my needs the k30 is almost just as good
03-14-2021, 01:07 AM   #60
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,520
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
To my understanding "your original words gave the most accurate and concise answer" to Andrea's question,
a question which others may have wondered about as well.
Well: If.... to *YOUR* understanding.... *MY* answer was... as you wrote now
"the most acurate and concise answer" to Andreas's question:

What "may others have wondered about as well"???
About what?

Before you wrote:
QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
The answer may be buried in photogem's last post
which is just nonsense. Nothing was buried!

QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
We don't need even more words on the subject - you may add even more
Oh, you are so polite... well, with your permission:

QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
.... but I am done.
Excellent idea!
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
aperture, approach, battery, bodies, camera, cameras, clicks, date, evidence, force, gn, k-30, k-50, k-70, kp, magnet, motor, pentax, pentax k30, pentax k50, production, resin, result, samsung, self, solenoid, teflon, unit, vibrations, vs
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Manual solenoid replacement Pentax K30 / Discharge flash-condenser / Solenoid choice photogem Pentax K-30 & K-50 204 03-20-2024 01:14 AM
Manual: Solenoid replacement: Pentax K-S1 photogem Pentax K-S1 & K-S2 71 12-11-2023 03:56 PM
Manual: Solenoid Replacment Pentax K-30/50/500 + Discharge of flash-condenser photogem Do-It-Yourself 23 08-26-2022 06:22 AM
Architecture Wee Bit Of History Kerrowdown Post Your Photos! 15 04-04-2021 01:35 PM
"What we learn from history is that we don't learn from history." jolepp General Talk 7 05-19-2012 09:38 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:32 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top