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07-15-2010, 03:09 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by paperbag846 Quote
Considering you already have high end bodies and lenses to match -

buy yourself the K-X and some primes. The K-X has better high ISO performance than the K7 and the price difference allows you to grab a lens for pretty much free.

Unless you are building a weather resistant kit, you could make Pentax your light and fun carry arround system.
The TO expressed explicitly his interest in Weather Resistance in his initial post!
He also wrote, that he rarely goes beyonf
d ISO400. So no need for the Kx high ISO capabilities, too.

Ben


Last edited by Ben_Edict; 07-15-2010 at 11:40 AM.
07-15-2010, 10:34 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by nemopaice Quote
Sure they do, but having worked around many professionals, I know that straight out of camera using identical lenses
I'd like to see samples that show any such thing. The review sites on the net are cluttered with comparison shots in which you have to pixel peep to extreme levels in order to see any difference whatsoever between cameras at this level, and even then, the differences tend to be hopeless subjective. The notion that one camera would *consistently* produce better results, to an extent that you'd do better than random chance telling them apart in a blindfold test, strikes me as *extraordinarily* unlikely.

And in any case, even if you turn out to be among the small percentage of the population who can actually consistently tell the difference and have a consistent preference for one over the other, the chances that any other person on this forum would happen to share that exact same bias are so infinitessimally small as to be negligible. In other words, asking other people for advice on making distinctions that only you are capable of making really doesn't make much sense.

I'm not saying this to talk you into or out of anything. I'm just trying to cast some perspective on your question - I really think it's unanswerable as asked.
07-15-2010, 11:45 AM   #18
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QuoteQuote:
pictures straight out of camera.

Certainly in the top 5 over-used phrases in photography. It's like saying coffee is too bitter if you don't add sugar.
07-15-2010, 12:09 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
The TO expressed explicitly his interest in Weather Resistance in his initial post!
He also wrote, that he rarely goes beyonf
d ISO400. So no need for the Kx high ISO capabilities, too.

Ben
Sorry, I missed the `salt and sand` but i read the `night`. Anyways my appologies ill shut up now . I agree that the K-7 is closer to the 50D than anything else, but they are fairly different cameras. You are on the right track buying the K-7 for the beach.

07-15-2010, 01:34 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
I'd like to see samples that show any such thing. The review sites on the net are cluttered with comparison shots in which you have to pixel peep to extreme levels in order to see any difference whatsoever between cameras at this level, and even then, the differences tend to be hopeless subjective. The notion that one camera would *consistently* produce better results, to an extent that you'd do better than random chance telling them apart in a blindfold test, strikes me as *extraordinarily* unlikely.
And in any case, even if you turn out to be among the small percentage of the population who can actually consistently tell the difference and have a consistent preference for one over the other, the chances that any other person on this forum would happen to share that exact same bias are so infinitessimally small as to be negligible. In other words, asking other people for advice on making distinctions that only you are capable of making really doesn't make much sense.
I'm not saying this to talk you into or out of anything. I'm just trying to cast some perspective on your question - I really think it's unanswerable as asked.
Well without hunting intensely for something that I have already experimented with almost a decade ago here is this... Nikon D3 vs Canon 5D Same-Lens Comparison
Now this was done with literally the exact same lens, you can see the difference on the rollovers. Irregardless. Nikon, in my eye, turns out a sharp image with soft tones when doing portraits, where as Canon always has (the only way I can descridbe it) a roughness to them.

Now I don't make no claim that I can tell a Nikon image from a Canon image, however, When I did my little experiment years ago, I definitely preferred my portraits out of the Nikon and that was using the same model lighting and lens just seconds apart. And even today anytime I shoot with nikon there is a certain warmth and softness to the tones that I just prefer with portraits.
Now having said that, Canon comes with software called "picture styler" which you can set up a style and load it to the camera that will come close to that of the Nikon's results. But again what it boils down to, is that I want to lighten my load and workflow. I've seen portraits, with no PP done, and sport shots done with each of these cameras I'm looking to switch to and I like them both.

So, let me make this easier.... What is it about the K-7 that you all absolutely just don't like? And what is it about this camera that you all just love?
07-15-2010, 01:59 PM   #21
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I love everythinhg about the K7 - the feel, the viewfinder, the sound, the output
I wish it had a geo tagging feature
I love my primes (the legendary trio)
I dislike the SDM issue affecting what should be the workhorses (DA* 16-50mm and DA* 50-135mm), altough it seems to get better, but not enough to consider using Pentax if I would go pro.
I dislike the fact that the longest telephoto in production by Pentax is the DA* 300mm
07-15-2010, 11:11 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by nemopaice Quote
Well without hunting intensely for something that I have already experimented with almost a decade ago here is this... Nikon D3 vs Canon 5D Same-Lens Comparison
I see only random WB, exposure, and focus differences that happened to come out one way on this particular shot. Next shot, the WB, exposure, and focus may have come out the other way. And in any case, both are easily overridden in two seconds. Either camera cold *easily* have taken either picture had the photographer made even a token effort set the WN, exposure, and focus he wanted.

QuoteQuote:
Nikon, in my eye, turns out a sharp image with soft tones when doing portraits, where as Canon always has (the only way I can descridbe it) a roughness to them.
And yet, as I pointed out, *thousands* of full time professional photographers manage to get wonderful portraits out of Canon cameras. The idea that you need a Nikon camera to get an acceptable picture when thousands of pros do fine with Canon just doesn't make sense to me.

Again, I say this not to be argumentative, but to make a point: *any* of these cameras can be used to do every single thing on your list. People of all ability levels manage this just fine, and the results can be good enough for professional use.

Last edited by Marc Sabatella; 07-15-2010 at 11:41 PM.
07-16-2010, 02:39 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
And yet, as I pointed out, *thousands* of full time professional photographers manage to get wonderful portraits out of Canon cameras. The idea that you need a Nikon camera to get an acceptable picture when thousands of pros do fine with Canon just doesn't make sense to me.

Again, I say this not to be argumentative, but to make a point: *any* of these cameras can be used to do every single thing on your list. People of all ability levels manage this just fine, and the results can be good enough for professional use.
lol It's ok, I don't think your being argumentative. In fact I enjoy these types of conversations... WB aside, I can tell one picture is softer than the other. There is no doubt in what you say. As I've said pros have used cell phones to take great pics.... And yes both cameras or any camera can turn out a wonderful picture.

It's just personal preference. It doesn't matter if others can tell, I can tell. Maybe I'm over critical? Have you ever seen a painter paint? Actually sat and watched from start to finish? Somewhere towards the end you keep thinking or saying, "hey that's perfect stop don't do nothing else?", but he keeps painting more? Because in his eye, there is still something missing.

Well it's like that for me. Anytime I take a portrait with a Canon I keep thinking there is something missing. No matter how good or bad or terrific or whatever, there is still something missing. But with the Nikon the portraits come out great, other than I may not like something about the pose or hair or some other aspect. And visa-vera with outdoorsy stuff. When I take a pic with the Canon, I think, "Man that is great!" But with the Nikon it's like, "eh, this is too much."

Now the guy next to me may say, "What are you talking about? It looks perfect, superb, outstanding, award wining!" But to me, not so much. I know people tend to be the most critical about their own work. And I probably sound a bit like a drama queen or something....lol But to me, there is that difference.

Maybe I've been shooting SLR too much? Remember when you always took pictures with the old point and shoos, and the first time you snapped off a couple pics with the SLR, you were so amazed at the difference in quality? I feel I'm missing that spark.

Maybe, I am just not happy with one of the two cameras and don't realize it? or realize which one? and need something new and different to give me some amount of spark back? And my mind is giving me reasons not to like one or the other for different reasons and its battling it out trying to figure out what to do? Heck I don't

Hmm, maybe that is it? Maybe I should just give up on one of the two (Nikon or Canon) and .... No I can't do that, then there would be a void....lol I am a mess! Maybe I need to be a three camera kinda guy?

But in my defense, there are many photogs that have and use both Nikon and Canon, and do so for similar, reasons. Not necessarily the same, but meaning they prefer one for one thing and the other for other things. I am just trying to see if it's possible to find an alternative for wanting, (not necessarily needing), to use two cameras.

07-16-2010, 04:16 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by nemopaice Quote
But in my defense, there are many photogs that have and use both Nikon and Canon, and do so for similar, reasons. Not necessarily the same, but meaning they prefer one for one thing and the other for other things. I am just trying to see if it's possible to find an alternative for wanting, (not necessarily needing), to use two cameras.
I personally find the major difference between Canon and Nikon to be the ergonomics and handling. I simply hate the Nikon menue system and find it very complicated and very much prefer the Canon menues, though I must say, that in terms of useability I find Pentax far superior to both other brands.

But this is ofcourse a highly subjective notion, as Pentax DSLRs very much handle the same as film SLRs and That's where I come from. I only ever used a P&S as a kid and later both a Nikon Coolpix 950 and then a Canon G5, until Pentax finally made good DSLRs available.

Ben
07-16-2010, 04:29 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by nemopaice Quote
So I was wondering, Which Canon DSLR would be it's closest rival (to the K-7)? And how do they compare?
I think your question is misguided. You should be looking at the lenses to determine the system. Look at what you want to shoot, determine the lenses that will let you do that, and then see if the cost of those lenses in each system meets your budget. None probably will, but then you start doing the mental exercise of determining how to do the most with the cash you have and will have. You'll probably find you'll have the system complete in five to ten years and at that point whatever body you are currently interested in will simply be a non issue.

Thank you
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07-16-2010, 04:37 AM   #26
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From my standpoint I can't imagine why you wouldn't get a 7D, especially since you already have Canon gear...I was scrambling trying sell all my camera gear, designer clothes and organs so I could buy a 7D, but I got a K7 instead because the funds just weren't there (and I really didn't want to get rid of my Kx, nor be juggling two brands...keeping the Kx was more important though). I don't regret it at all...but I just wish I had a 7D since it was everything I wanted and more.

I'm just an average joe shooter though so I'm sure there's tons of things I'm overlooking.

Last edited by future_retro; 07-16-2010 at 04:44 AM.
07-16-2010, 05:57 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by nemopaice Quote
lol It's ok, I don't think your being argumentative. In fact I enjoy these types of conversations... WB aside, I can tell one picture is softer than the other. There is no doubt in what you say. As I've said pros have used cell phones to take great pics.... And yes both cameras or any camera can turn out a wonderful picture.

It's just personal preference. It doesn't matter if others can tell, I can tell. Maybe I'm over critical? Have you ever seen a painter paint? Actually sat and watched from start to finish? Somewhere towards the end you keep thinking or saying, "hey that's perfect stop don't do nothing else?", but he keeps painting more? Because in his eye, there is still something missing.

Well it's like that for me. Anytime I take a portrait with a Canon I keep thinking there is something missing. No matter how good or bad or terrific or whatever, there is still something missing. But with the Nikon the portraits come out great, other than I may not like something about the pose or hair or some other aspect. And visa-vera with outdoorsy stuff. When I take a pic with the Canon, I think, "Man that is great!" But with the Nikon it's like, "eh, this is too much."

Now the guy next to me may say, "What are you talking about? It looks perfect, superb, outstanding, award wining!" But to me, not so much. I know people tend to be the most critical about their own work. And I probably sound a bit like a drama queen or something....lol But to me, there is that difference.

Maybe I've been shooting SLR too much? Remember when you always took pictures with the old point and shoos, and the first time you snapped off a couple pics with the SLR, you were so amazed at the difference in quality? I feel I'm missing that spark.

Maybe, I am just not happy with one of the two cameras and don't realize it? or realize which one? and need something new and different to give me some amount of spark back? And my mind is giving me reasons not to like one or the other for different reasons and its battling it out trying to figure out what to do? Heck I don't

Hmm, maybe that is it? Maybe I should just give up on one of the two (Nikon or Canon) and .... No I can't do that, then there would be a void....lol I am a mess! Maybe I need to be a three camera kinda guy?

But in my defense, there are many photogs that have and use both Nikon and Canon, and do so for similar, reasons. Not necessarily the same, but meaning they prefer one for one thing and the other for other things. I am just trying to see if it's possible to find an alternative for wanting, (not necessarily needing), to use two cameras.
You almost sound like a person I met on the Charles Bridge in Prague a few years ago. I was there for a conference and stayed on a few days because it was a much cheaper flight option. So I took my camera (K10D) and 3 lenses, (sigma 10-20, tamron 28-75 and K135F2.8) and went out for a couple of days to shoot and sightsee. Any way, I notice this guy following me around with a canon setup (don't know the model, I kind of ignore canon any way) and eventually he comes up to me and asks, "Why are your pictures so much better than mine?" I guess he was watching the image review after each shot. I was very tempted to respond, because I shoot with a pentax camera, but bit my tongue and explained how to get the shots with his gear, and how to set the exposure properly (there was a serious backlighting issue)

I am not saying you don't know your gear, but as others have said, most of camera selection is preference, it is the responsibility of the photographer to know how to make use of the camera, including all the settings.
07-16-2010, 01:43 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by nemopaice Quote
lol It's ok, I don't think your being argumentative. In fact I enjoy these types of conversations...
Glad to hear it - so do I :-)

QuoteQuote:
WB aside, I can tell one picture is softer than the other.
Oh, so can I - but no way would a camera difference in sharpness be visible at the posted sizes. The sharpness differences in those samples are either differences in the exact point of focus or difference in degree of sharpening applied. At the very highest ISO settings, *then* sensor differences might come into play as well, but that's not relevant for what you're talking about here.

QuoteQuote:
There is no doubt in what you say. As I've said pros have used cell phones to take great pics....
True, but none of them would seriously suggest that a cell phone will do as well as a DSLR in most situations. Whereas I think you'd find almost universal agreement that *any* of these DSLR's has image quality *more* than sufficient for even high end professional needs.

QuoteQuote:
It's just personal preference. It doesn't matter if others can tell, I can tell.
Maybe. No doubt you can see a difference in the posted pictures, and maybe whatever haphazard experiments you've performed before have supported that notion. But could you really tell in a controlled blindfold test - same scene shot *by the same photographer*, while *striving for the same type of image*, using both cameras, then you examining the images without knowing which was which? There might be *extremely* subtle differences that still remained after the photography equalized what he could reasonably control, and sure, where there's a difference, there's likely to be a preference. but repeat this test with 100 different portraits - each pair shot with both cameras by the same photographer in this same manner - and I'll bet your preferences end up being random - about half the pairs you'd pick the Canon, about half you'd pick the Nikon. The chances that you'd be able to correctly tell which camera took which picture even 55% of the time (50% being random chance) strike me almost astronomically small.

Anyhow, my point about the subjective nature of this is that *even* if it turns out you personally turn out to be in the incredibly tiny segment of the population that can consistently tell the difference - a consistent preference for one over the other, not just random chance - there is an even smaller chance that anyone else in the world will share that same subjective preference. So really, what's the point of asking others if the K-7 can take a better portrait than a Canon, or hardly anyone is going to be making these same distinctions as you?

QuoteQuote:
Maybe I'm over critical? Have you ever seen a painter paint?
Many, many times - I was a painter before getting into photography (and still am, although I confess to not having painted in several month). But your analogy doesn't hold well. Sure, we see things we like to correct (and often even in our own eyes end up going too far and overworking the painting). But I'm not saying it's impossible to see things or have preferences - just that there is almost no chances that those preferences will actually turn out to correlate beyond random chance with camera model. And to the extent you happen to be a rare exception, there is an even smaller chance that anyone else here will happen to share those same subjective preferences.

QuoteQuote:
Anytime I take a portrait with a Canon I keep thinking there is something missing. No matter how good or bad or terrific or whatever, there is still something missing. But with the Nikon the portraits come out great, other than I may not like something about the pose or hair or some other aspect. And visa-vera with outdoorsy stuff. When I take a pic with the Canon, I think, "Man that is great!" But with the Nikon it's like, "eh, this is too much."
I think this is mostly a case of difference in lenses, combined with difference in camera settings, combined with your preconceived notions tending to color your own perceptions. That's why I am talking about blindfold tests where you don't know which camera is which - to eliminate the effect of prior prejudice.

QuoteQuote:
Maybe, I am just not happy with one of the two cameras and don't realize it? or realize which one? and need something new and different to give me some amount of spark back? And my mind is giving me reasons not to like one or the other for different reasons and its battling it out trying to figure out what to do?
This all sounds entirely plausible, and I do think the importance of this cannot be overstated. Changing brands is more likely to rekindle a spark for you than "settling" (the word itself sounds, well, like settling!) for one of the two you already have, or even another model in the same line. There's no escaping the *feeling* of dissatisfaction with a camera even if a blindfold test suggests you actually *could* have been perfectly happy with the images.

QuoteQuote:
But in my defense, there are many photogs that have and use both Nikon and Canon, and do so for similar, reasons.
I don't know about "many" - it's pretty uncommon, really. I read photography magazines pretty regularly, and I almost never hear anyone list both Canon and Nikon gear in any of the articles where pros discuss their equipment. And to the extent they do, it's usually because of issues of availability of specific lenses or accessories or because of specific camera feature (eg, someone who is primarily a Nikon guy, but shoots one particular subject with Canon because he has this killer $10,000 lens he likes to use for that subject and he either can't afford to get the Nikon equivalent or there isn't an equivalent).

But FWIW, as rare as it is for someone to regularly shoot both C&N, it's actually quite a but *more* common for someone to shoot Pentax as well as something else. Again, almost invariably for reasons of lens / accessory availability or some specific camera feature more than an image issue per se. But I think this suggest that it's probably *more* likely you be happy with just the Nikon or just the Canon than just the Pentax, I'm afraid to say. But that "spark" thing can't be discounted; if Pentax turns out to do it for you, that could trump all other concerns.
07-16-2010, 03:11 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
Glad to hear it - so do I :-)
That's makes me more comfortable knowing that....

I wouldn't mind having someone give me a blind test between a Nikon port and a Canon port. It would be interesting.

It may in fact be that I just need to have my spark rekindled, bt that would still leave me with the conundrum of which of the two to stick with and which one to sell to re-invest in Pentax? But that is a decision I will just have to try and figure out myself... Although re-reading some this, it appears to me that I already may be leaning towards keeping the Nikon and 86-ing the Canon?

As for Photogs using both... sure they do. Just because they don't always talk about it.... For example..... http://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/
A wonderful photog who readily admits using both.... (no didn't hunt him down, I just follow a lot of photogs.... I did have to hunt down where he mentioned using both though... It's in the link)

My experiment wasnt really hap hazardly done.... I mean I took care in using the same settings, lighting, etc... And the exact same Nikkor lens. Canon users do have the availability to use nikon lenses so I didn't have to rig anything? My only regret is I didn;t keep the results, but that was long ago.

Anyhow, I think it may just be more of a need to rekindle something? I did see a wonderful photog on here (I think his name was devisor?) that took some absolutely wonderful studio shots using a k20D, and I think he also has the k-7 (from what I read?) But judging from his work on his website, if the k20d can perform that well, then I should be happy with the K-7?
07-17-2010, 01:01 PM   #30
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OK, I found someone willing to let me barrow their Pentax *ist DS for tonight. How would this compare to the k-7?
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