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09-25-2010, 07:45 PM   #61
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I find what some P&S cameras can do rather amazing. They are very limited in relation to a DSLR and much more awkward to use, but the better ones produce images that are more than adaquate for posting on the net and even printing to 8X10. Even though your images are good, I can get far superior sharpness, DOF and especially rendering with my DA 15mm Limited and K20D. And I can blow them up pretty large without losing anything.
The thing is, to get the most from DSLRs and good lenses, you have to know what you are doing. If all you are going to do is point and shoot in auto modes, why spend all the extra money on a DSLR. Just get a good P&S.

09-25-2010, 08:48 PM   #62
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Of course, I agree with you. I will acquire a DA 15mm first, then FA 31mm and FA77mm. Some time next year, I will get a K-5 and mount FA31 on it and put them in the curio cabinet as a conversation piece because I admire the superb engineering of that lens.
09-25-2010, 10:12 PM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by violini Quote
The photos were taken with Canon G11 during the trip to Western Australia. I am having trouble of taking similar quality photos using K-7.
The entire scene is not in focus in that first sample picture. Don't you want the ground to be in focus?
09-25-2010, 10:26 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by violini Quote
Of course, I agree with you. I will acquire a DA 15mm first, then FA 31mm and FA77mm. Some time next year, I will get a K-5 and mount FA31 on it and put them in the curio cabinet as a conversation piece because I admire the superb engineering of that lens.
I would suggest you hit the books and learn some photography basics before buying stuff that costs so much. This is the beginners section, there should be people asking about books and educational stuff - look around here for suggestions. Skill - not better, more expensive glass - will make your pictures look better...

Basically, my guess is, you'll be disappointed with all three of those lenses you mention - because none of them are the "point and shoot" kind. You really need to have some experience to make good photos with them. Or buy them now - and get really pissed off at how "bad" they are, and how pictures turn out worse than those from your G11.

QuoteQuote:
M50mm/1.7, M135mm/3.5, K-x, K-7 and 18-55mm kit lenses
Are these the lenses you have right now? The manual lenses you have are quite high-quality - learn how to use them, and they'll give you great pictures. The kit lens is a pretty easy lens to use, and a lot of basic "how-to's" are written for kit lenses since these are the most common among newbies. Plus, K-7 plus a kit lens plus green mode is about as good as a P&S.

09-26-2010, 05:44 AM   #65
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As many times as it has been mentioned on this board, I would suggest finding the book called "Understanding Exposure" and read the chapter over Aperture. The info in the book may not be agreed upon by everybody, but at least it will give you a much better understanding of how it works, rather than you going out and spending loads of money on lenses, only to be further dissapointed.
09-26-2010, 08:45 AM   #66
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Yes, I will go to the library to read some books about digital photography. To me, photography means to go to the right place at the right time to find the right subject and do the right composition and exposure. I am a retiree; although I no longer have monthly paycheck, but I have no debt and nothing else to spend. Therefore, I will acquire the best equipment and learn from there.
09-26-2010, 12:12 PM   #67
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To me the photos from the G11 are too flat and lack of (colour) depth to my liking, you may have different view but that is perfect okay. The camera is only a tool, and no tool can provide you with the "best" picture unless you know what your "best" picture is. Yes, the P&S camera provides convenience, if it means "picture or no picture", then I may only one choice-P&S; however, in most cases, the K-7 with A28/43/77mm combo is quite portable.
09-27-2010, 08:57 AM   #68
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Some Examples- and another way to go???

But part of photography is also achieving the right effect. Did you purposely blur the image to demonstrate motion? Did you use a shallow depth of field when photographing the flower to make the flower itself stand out from the background? Sometimes an image that has EVERYTHING sharp creates a distraction and confuses the composition.

Check out this image by Elliot Porter, one of the masters of the art:

Eliot Porter (Getty Center Exhibitions)

notice the BG has gone a bit soft but it makes the front trees stand out even more.

Here is one by Ansel Adams, another master of the art, where the sky and water are purposely blurred:

Ansel adams image by Will93_bucket on Photobucket

If yo want total sharpness, front-to-back, then you may need another type of camera, and a big bank account, large format! The digital back is over $10K, plus the camera equipment!

Best regards,

BG

09-27-2010, 11:52 AM   #69
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Thanks for the links. I know Haselblat and Mamiya make large format cameras and 40-50 MP sensors. I hesitate to invest too much on DA lenses because we don't know how long 24x16mm sensor will be around. I will only buy DA15 (my first "bokeh-less" lens) for now.

Photo technology has changed so much from the good old film days. Exposure control is within easy reach of your finger tips. I think the most challenging part in photography is to go out to find the interesting subjects and do the right composition. I am starting to learn the "bright-room" processing, i.e. Photoshop.
09-27-2010, 01:41 PM   #70
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Re: Large Format

When I say large format, I am talking view camera. This is what many of the "masters" used years ago. See Sinar, Toyo, Ebony and others. This certainly takes this out of the realm of this forum, but really, for good image quality and no bokeh, this is really the only way to go. Ansel used an 11x14 INCH (film size) view camera. You can probably get away with a nice 4x5 base camera for $4K new, plus the digital back (min., 10K), lenses ($500 to $2K) each) etc.

Otherwise we must be content to make the bokeh as useful as possible.

"If money is no object, then anything is possible!"

Regards,
BD
09-27-2010, 02:53 PM   #71
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Hey, I think you might as well buy a fun toy considering you want this to be a fun hobby and money is not a concern.

I, unlike many here, would agree with your worry about the inevitability of full-frame. Have you considered the sigma primes?

20mm F1.8 EX DG ASP RF - Wide Angle Prime Lenses - SigmaPhoto.com

This lens is not nearly as small, or sexy, as the DA 15, but it is full frame and a 20mm shot is pretty easy to control depth of field with. You will want to be stopping down to f 8 or higher to get the full depth of field, but I should also mention that lens sharpness is not as important as you would think, and that "pixel peeping" (looking at pictures at 100% in photoshop) can show all sorts of flaws that would not be seen in a print.

However for MAXIMUM depth of field, the 15mm lens would be best. Have a look at this... it's a great site full of good information:

Understanding Depth of Field in Photography
09-28-2010, 10:24 AM   #72
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I might mention the Tokina-made manual M42 21/3.8, badged as Vivitar, Lentar, Soligor, etc, which can still be found for US$50-$100 -- mine cost ~$22.50 total.

I might mention that such a lens, stopped down to f/11 and prefocused to 2m, has essentially limitless DOF from 1m to infinity. We don't need no stinking bokeh!

Yes, I might mention it. But then I'd be feeding the troll. So I won't mention it. Forget y'all ever read this. Think of other stuff, like pinheads er I mean pinholes.

Last edited by RioRico; 09-28-2010 at 10:30 AM.
09-28-2010, 12:07 PM   #73
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Violini, I don't understand your aversion to "bokeh". Certainly, in some cases, it is desirable to have everything in the scene in sharp focus. But, not always.

Sometimes, an in-focus background can distract the viewer from an object in the foreground. By having an out-of-focus background, the viewer's eye is naturally drawn to the object you wish to emphasize. The revers can also be true. It may be the foreground you wish to obscure, while drawning the viewer to something in the background.

I have seen many examples of photographs that are very boring when everything is crystal clear, but really pop when selective focus is used.

My point is simply that both techniques are equally valid, in some situations. Each has its own place. Don't ignore either.

In addition to the book 'Understanding Exposure", by Bryan Peterson, I highly recommend "Learning to See Creatively", by the same author. Creativity is difficult to teach, but he gives some good techniques and excercises to help you see things differently. Seeing things differently or from a different perspective is often the key to making an exciting picture, rather than a ho-hum snapshot.

To me, one of the principle differences between making a photograph and simply taking a picture, is the ability of the photographer to control, or at least influence, the viewer's perception; to make it match your own.
09-29-2010, 08:28 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by RioRico Quote
I might mention the Tokina-made manual M42 21/3.8, badged as Vivitar, Lentar, Soligor, etc, which can still be found for US$50-$100 -- mine cost ~$22.50 total.

I might mention that such a lens, stopped down to f/11 and prefocused to 2m, has essentially limitless DOF from 1m to infinity.
Just for the record (and not implying that this is new information ) -- all the old MF Pentax wide-angle lenses have orange marks on the aperture and focus rings indicating a medium aperture and its associated hyperfocal distance.

Just select these positions and shoot in Av mode, and everything will be sharp. From about half that distance to infinity. (Unless the shutter speed is too slow or the subject moves too fast, of course.)

Not that I loathe the bokeh -- not at all -- but sometimes this is useful for quick or candid shots.
09-30-2010, 12:32 PM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by violini Quote
I owned a Canon G11 before moving on to Pentax K-7. I've seen so many sample photos on the Internet taken with over thousand dollars lenses; these photos with partly sharp, partly blurred objects are really disturbing to me.
I don't understand.....
You say the above, yet post pictures taken by you with plenty bokeh.

Personally, if everything in the frame has maximum sharpness and perfect focus the photo falls under the boring category with very few exceptions. To each his own I guess
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