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09-30-2010, 05:23 AM   #1
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burst speed question

I want to get a second body. I have a K10D and I my only gripe with it is the number of frames per second that it takes. I have found more than once that I have just missed something as the time gap between frames is to great.

She who must be obeyed has a Km which has much the same FPS rate as the K10but it seems but it looks like the KX has a higher one, however Pentax have now thrown a spanner in the works with KR. which is even greater. I know the other differences between the kx and the Kr from Pentax website and since I don't use live view , shoot movies, do low light stuff[much]most of the improvement don't do much for me BUT that high FPS does.
I bought a x70 as it has a high burst rate but the images get taken at 5mp and are frankly not very good quality in that mode, it seesm to use the video modes to do this, worse still any image over 200 asa is very noisy and above 400 the jepg conversion is terrible so that route of a bridge camera is out.

What I can't wrap my head around is the almost double price of a KR to a KX. is that higher frame rate worth that much money. What I need to find out is three things,
How much faster is the FPS on a Kx vs the K!O?
How much difference does the higher frame rate of a Kr made compared to a KX?
Is it possible to extract high quality stills from video and should I maybe rather go down that route.??????????is there a video forum I should talk to?
adwb


Last edited by adwb; 09-30-2010 at 05:49 AM.
09-30-2010, 07:24 AM   #2
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The kr is essentially an improved k-x. Most of the features are identical, except that it has a higher framerate, better noise control and larger ISO range, a better LCD screen, an AF assist light, and a few other minor tweaks. I guess it's also worth pointing out that it can take AAs or a rechargeable battery.

To compare the K-x and K-r, visit this link:
Pentax K-r & Pentax K-x - Pentax Camera Comparison - PentaxForums.com

Since you were using the K10D, however, I'd recommend you upgrade to either the K-7 or the K-5 (which you can compare above as well - the page above supports inline comparison of up to 8 cameras - just click the plus link in the upper-right, and select your desired cameras from the dropdowns.

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09-30-2010, 09:13 AM   #3
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I have a K-x and it has two different burst shooting modes, the lower rate has 2fps (like K10D I believe) and the higher rate is 4.7fps. there is a huge diference between them and I don't see myself missing a shot because the frame rate is not high enough (I mostly use this to shoot people on the street).
The difference between 4.7 and 6fps doesn't sound as significant to me but I haven't tried it so I don't know.
09-30-2010, 11:07 AM   #4
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Only you (OP) can really answer this question. Do you find yourself missing photo opportunities because the camera isn't fast enough? Would the 5fps get the picture you couldn't in 3fps?

I shoot events and I've found 3fps on my K10D was enough. Granted the K7 shoots faster in the same scenarios, I felt the higher frame rate did not create a photo for me that wasn't already there.

You should upgrade your camera for other reasons, the faster AF, LiveView, higher ISO, ergonomics, ease of feature adjustments, have all been worthwhile features to me.

09-30-2010, 06:10 PM   #5
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We have this discussion every new camera model. Human reaction time is about 0.4 seconds and the shots you mis are due to poor anticipation because unless you are shooting video the frame rate is irrlelvant
09-30-2010, 08:54 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
We have this discussion every new camera model. Human reaction time is about 0.4 seconds and the shots you mis are due to poor anticipation because unless you are shooting video the frame rate is irrlelvant
I disagree it's irrelevant. If you have amazing anticipation skills fair enough a high frame rate will be less important, but there will always be situations that can't be anticipated and that last only a fraction of second. If reaction time is 0.4s and the event lasts less than that, then having a high fps will improve your chances of getting the shot.
10-01-2010, 01:57 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by Stiv Quote
I disagree it's irrelevant. If you have amazing anticipation skills fair enough a high frame rate will be less important, but there will always be situations that can't be anticipated and that last only a fraction of second. If reaction time is 0.S and the event lasts less than that, then having a high fps will improve your chances of getting the shot.
exactly, for example, I am at a show where dogs jump from a moving boat into the water to rescue a person, I cannot 100 accurately anticipate when the dog will jump. With the K10 on repeated examples of this scenario I often caught the dog stating to jump however there were only 2 more frames usable, one in the air and one with the dog half way into the water, so if I am fractionally slow all I get is dog in air and dog in water if I am lucky, if I double the K10d frame rate then the resultant choices of usable images should greater.
10-01-2010, 05:12 AM   #8
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Let me add some personal comments. I take a lot of Hi continuous shooting bursts with 20 to 60 shots continuously sometimes. Based upon my own experience, two key issues are:

* Between the K-x/K-r and K-7/K-5, it is 'day and night'. The highest frame rate is close (4.7 fpd vs 5.2/7 fps) but the buffer memory of the K-7/K-5 is much larger. The K-7/K-5 can both sustain longer bursts of fast shooting. Hence the K-7/K-5 are the better choice for anyone who want seriously to take some fast continuous bursts.

* The frame rate is important despite some earlier comments. I take a lot of dynamic/action shots and I dislike missing the action. In doubt, a fast burst will get you at least a couple of good shots. Trust me, that is more than 6 years that I take a lot of actions: speed is everything - everything!



10-01-2010, 05:45 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
We have this discussion every new camera model. Human reaction time is about 0.4 seconds and the shots you mis are due to poor anticipation because unless you are shooting video the frame rate is irrlelvant
QuoteOriginally posted by Stiv Quote
I disagree it's irrelevant. If you have amazing anticipation skills fair enough a high frame rate will be less important, but there will always be situations that can't be anticipated and that last only a fraction of second. If reaction time is 0.4s and the event lasts less than that, then having a high fps will improve your chances of getting the shot.
Think about what you have said here with respect to my comment. If the event lasts for less than the reaction time, nothing at all will help unless you are shooting already, because by the very nature of this fleeting event, you simply cannot react.

What you are talking about is machine gunning at the maximum frame rate, hoping something unusual will happen. That situation will NEVER be captured properly in still cameras outside of dumb luck, that is wherre video will always win.

It all comes down to knowing what you are shooting because the "un expected" is really only unexpected to the ill informed. I think at the release of the K10D people complained about the 3 FPS maximum rate, until someone, I think it was wheatfield, but I could be wrong, posted a shot from an equestrian event of a rider falling off the horse, with the rider in mid air. When you consider the physics involved the shot should have been impossible, in terms of reaction time and the time between the saddle and the ground, but he also stated that it was obvious that the rider was in trouble/uncomfortable sometime before the fall and that this was the only shot taken. No machine gunning, usinf a MF lens not AF, and just 1 shot.
10-01-2010, 05:56 AM   #10
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Hubert,
that fast frame rate is what I was looking at and not the buffer content so thanks for pointing that out.

The kx for jpeg at 17 frames might be ok for what I use burst for, but I notice the Kr has significantly high buffer capacity at 25 a fact not pointed out in most of the minor reviews available for the Kr unless I missed it.
Lowell,
yes you are correct , but if you are waiting as per my example in post#7the faster the burst rate the more chance of getting that "special "image.
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10-01-2010, 06:07 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
Think about what you have said here with respect to my comment. If the event lasts for less than the reaction time, nothing at all will help unless you are shooting already, because by the very nature of this fleeting event, you simply cannot react.
Exactly. Thats what Stiv and Adwb are saying. If it cannot possibly be (precisely) captured by anticipation, then you start shooting a burst beforehand and hope one of the photos will be usable. Double the framerate and you double your chances of a usable photo.
10-01-2010, 07:03 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
We have this discussion every new camera model. Human reaction time is about 0.4 seconds and the shots you mis are due to poor anticipation because unless you are shooting video the frame rate is irrlelvant
The fastest SLR I've ever used was a 6fps Nikon F2s that would whip through a roll of 36 in about 6 seconds. What it taught me was that unless you pushed the button at the right time, you would generally get a picture taken slightly before, or slightly after what you wanted.
An increased frame rate will move the picture closer to the peak of action, but frame rate alone will not give you the best picture. You still need to push the button at the right time.
10-01-2010, 07:33 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by adwb Quote
that fast frame rate is what I was looking at and not the buffer content so thanks for pointing that out.
Alistair,
A small additional comment: the fast frame rate can only be achieved if:
- the buffer memory is not full, and
- the in-camera PP is switched off.

There have been several threads on continuous shooting and many of us discovered that many forms of PP will slow down the camera, and hence the frame rate. The best known example is lens distortion correction, but other forms of in-camera PP (eg high ISO correction) will slow down the camera.

Ultimately it is not a big deal, because you can always PP later (in computer)> But better to ensure that all in-camera PP is killed off.
10-01-2010, 07:49 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by hcc Quote
Alistair,
A small additional comment: the fast frame rate can only be achieved if:
- the buffer memory is not full, and
- the in-camera PP is switched off.

There have been several threads on continuous shooting and many of us discovered that many forms of PP will slow down the camera, and hence the frame rate. The best known example is lens distortion correction, but other forms of in-camera PP (eg high ISO correction) will slow down the camera.

Ultimately it is not a big deal, because you can always PP later (in computer)> But better to ensure that all in-camera PP is killed off.
other frame rate limiters, auto focus, AWB, and JPEG size, because if people want to shoot continuos burst, they are talking about running I think (on K7 any way) at reduced JPEG quality and perhaps 10MP resolution. But cutting resolution below this takes more calculations and slows things down. it is a ballancing act between PP in the camera, and data rate out of the processor and buffer.

but as weatfield has said, its all about pushing the button at the right time.

If you want to catch it exactly, you are looking at as a minimum video (24-30 fps) or perhaps high speed video at 100+ FPS. in fact, present video technologies have resolution good enough for the news papers already, for achieving this, and we will never match the timing until we go to an electronic shutter and get rid of the limitations of the mirror assembly and stopping down of the lens.
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