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01-20-2011, 10:44 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by deltoidjohn Quote
What is the maximum sync speed with the Metz?

If you want to really freeze and isolate the subject and the dart, you'll need a fast shutter speed - this will both freeze the action and lower the ambient light.
Not necessary - the flash will take care of that since it is a burst of light at about 1/1000 though that may vary.

01-20-2011, 11:10 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Javaslinger Quote
I was wondering how I would illuminate the subject with the flash without also illuminating everything behind them. And you have answered it! Thanks!!
If you're interested in a little more explanation...

Light falloff is governed by the Inverse Square Law. What it means is, as distance from the light source increases, "amount" of light decreases by the square of the difference.

Now, since that probably doesn't make sense...

If your dart guy is four feet from the flash, and the bar is eight feet from the flash, the bar is getting hit with 1/4 what your guy sees.

Double the distance, quarter the power. That's the main thing.

You can change the effects by moving your flash.

Feel free to ignore the numbers below. You DO NOT need to understand the underlying math to understand the concept. I have a math degree, and I have to think about it pretty hard sometimes.

Move your flash 2 feet closer. Man is 2 feet away, bar is now 6 feet away (4 feet beyond the subject). Drop the flash power by 1/4 to compensate, now the DIFFERENCE between flash-to-subject and flash-to-background has increased. The bar is only getting 1/9 of the light.

Now DOUBLE your original flash-to-subject distance to 8 feet. Man is 8 feet away, bar is 12 feet away. Increase flash power to four times the original. The DIFFERENCE between flash-to-subject and flash-to-background has now DECREASED. The bar is getting just under half the light of the man. (1/2.25 to be exact.)

I love photography math!

There are other factors at play here, such as the apparent size of the light source, and hence the hardness of the light, but that's another story.
01-20-2011, 02:17 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Javaslinger Quote
I'm trying to understand shutter speeds with flash.. so I know 1/30 sec is not very fast. Which would make me think that the dart would be blurred.

But I guess since the only light is coming from the flash (due to the small aperture) the camera only captures the dart at the instant it's lit by the very fast flash? Which is flashing much faster that 1/30 of a second.. correct?
Bingo.

Believe me--this ain't easy to do, but that's a big part of the theory.
01-20-2011, 03:09 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by lavascript Quote
If you're interested in a little more explanation...

Light falloff is governed by the Inverse Square Law. What it means is, as distance from the light source increases, "amount" of light decreases by the square of the difference.

Now, since that probably doesn't make sense...

If your dart guy is four feet from the flash, and the bar is eight feet from the flash, the bar is getting hit with 1/4 what your guy sees.

Double the distance, quarter the power. That's the main thing.

You can change the effects by moving your flash.

Feel free to ignore the numbers below. You DO NOT need to understand the underlying math to understand the concept. I have a math degree, and I have to think about it pretty hard sometimes.

Move your flash 2 feet closer. Man is 2 feet away, bar is now 6 feet away (4 feet beyond the subject). Drop the flash power by 1/4 to compensate, now the DIFFERENCE between flash-to-subject and flash-to-background has increased. The bar is only getting 1/9 of the light.

Now DOUBLE your original flash-to-subject distance to 8 feet. Man is 8 feet away, bar is 12 feet away. Increase flash power to four times the original. The DIFFERENCE between flash-to-subject and flash-to-background has now DECREASED. The bar is getting just under half the light of the man. (1/2.25 to be exact.)

I love photography math!

There are other factors at play here, such as the apparent size of the light source, and hence the hardness of the light, but that's another story.
It's so nice to be fluent in English. I couldn't have explained it any better, even if I tried my best. Simple concepts are sometime hard to explain when English isn't your primary language.

01-20-2011, 03:35 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
Forget the dart. It would be a waste of time trying to freeze it in flight. You want faces and expressions of the players...
I agree, but I would be really tempted to try getting a DIF (dart in flight) shot.

I think it would be difficult or impossible to do it all in one shot and retain the bar ambiance. Probably by the time you got the technique right, the thrower would be very tired. Maybe I'd add in the dart in Photoshop later.
01-20-2011, 03:35 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by JeffJS Quote
Yes, Ira, it's mine. I have the two shown and 2 of the downgrade models, one of which is shown in my Single in January album.
I had a Gretsch Rally that I wish I still had. Great guitar!


QuoteQuote:
I didn't see that particular episode of the ARS. I would imagine for that kind of money it had to be in mint condition, strings or not. Most that I've read suggest storing string'd instruments like this with the stings relaxed. I disagree but what do I know.. I'm not an expert giving appraisals.

It was a 6120 that had belonged to a guy who passed it down to his son, who passed it down to his son. Neither the son nor grandson were players so the guitar had been kept in it's case for almost 50 years, I think they said. They still had the original warranty card, case, and matching strap. You're right...everything was in almost mint condition.

Now that I'm done hijacking the thread... If the OP is wanting a photo to remind him of his joy of throwing darts, I think I'd stage something, if I were him, and light it with the flash. Maybe a little rim lighting to help keep the mood or something.
01-20-2011, 04:00 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by flyer Quote
It's so nice to be fluent in English. I couldn't have explained it any better, even if I tried my best. Simple concepts are sometime hard to explain when English isn't your primary language.
Prochaine fois, vous me voulez utiliser mes compétences FORMIDABLE de français?

Non, non, je rigole...
01-20-2011, 04:14 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by flyer Quote
In a bar, the light level is low enough to be negligible with flash, especially if you shut the diaphragm enough to get a decent depth of field and the flash is close to the subject to isolate it.
It depends on the ISO setting. Generally when I shoot in a bar it is without flash at ISO 1600 and there I have 1/125 or better with a fast prime

If you are not in full control I can see ghostimg. In fact there was a post this week with just that problem

01-20-2011, 04:56 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by lavascript Quote
Prochaine fois, vous me voulez utiliser mes compétences FORMIDABLE de français?

Non, non, je rigole...
You deserve an "A" for the effort, but I think my English is still better than your French.

Now, joke aside, I never make fun of somebody doing the effort to try a foreign language. I know what kind of challenge it can be, and I appreciate somebody making an effort to reach through the language barrier. So, I raise my hat to you.
01-20-2011, 05:01 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
It depends on the ISO setting. Generally when I shoot in a bar it is without flash at ISO 1600 and there I have 1/125 or better with a fast prime

If you are not in full control I can see ghostimg. In fact there was a post this week with just that problem
Use 100 ISO with an aperture of 8 or 11 with a shutter speed of 1/180, and the bar lighting will become irrelevant. That will make it about 8 stops above your set up, so the background will be almost black and anything and everything will fade into darkness.

You describe a set up you're comfortable with, but my answer was specifically about what the OP wanted to know, not about casual shooting in a bar.
01-20-2011, 06:46 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by flyer Quote
Use 100 ISO with an aperture of 8 or 11 with a shutter speed of 1/180, and the bar lighting will become irrelevant. That will make it about 8 stops above your set up, so the background will be almost black and anything and everything will fade into darkness.
I've been trying to put my two cents in for hours but I keep getting side tracked.
I agree with Flyer but I'd like to add a couple things. Front curtain sync is default on my (and most) cameras. Yes I use Nikon DSLRs (FinePix actually) and I usually confine my opinions to the Pentax film forums.
Front curtain sync causes trails forward of the moving object. Not an issue if the only light is from your speedlight. If you have any ambient, the forward trails ruin the movement of the shot. So, rear curtain or slow sync is better for this.
Using aperture and low ISO to block out light would be one approach.
You could also try setting the aperture for overall IQ. Like maybe 5.6 or whatever is optimal on your lens. You would have to be a bit more careful about DOF.
You could slow the shutter down or raise the ISO (or both) to allow more ambient in so you have some background detail. The flash would still freeze the dart and the thrower.
My Nikon speedlight fires a little faster then 1/1000 at full power. The milliseconds go down in proportion to output. I have a high speed sync function (up to 1/8000) but flash power goes way down. Instead of firing once, you get a burst to eliminate shadow from either front or rear curtain.
I'm pretty sure Pentax does the same thing but, in any case, a speedlight will freeze a dart in mid air, provided you can nail your focus and time your shot.

I would like to see the captures, however the OP decides to approach this one. There are a couple different angles you could come at it.
01-20-2011, 08:01 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gashog Quote
There are a couple different angles you could come at it.
But the greatest chance for a bullseye would probably involve positioning yourself perpendicular to the board.
01-20-2011, 09:02 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by lavascript Quote
But the greatest chance for a bullseye would probably involve positioning yourself perpendicular to the board.
Like!

Actually, a bullseye perspective would definitely start a trend.
01-21-2011, 04:28 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by flyer Quote
Use 100 ISO with an aperture of 8 or 11 with a shutter speed of 1/180, and the bar lighting will become irrelevant. That will make it about 8 stops above your set up, so the background will be almost black and anything and everything will fade into darkness.

You describe a set up you're comfortable with, but my answer was specifically about what the OP wanted to know, not about casual shooting in a bar.
While that may achieve a frozen daart (I'm actually not so sure) it goes back to whether this is to be a posed shot or one taken during competition.

If the intent is for competition shots, I am very certain that the flash power required for a ISO100 F11 shot would blind the players and they will be extremely pissed. That is why I shoot natural light for situations like this, it is not for "casual shots" but out of respect for the competitors. Go back to one of my earlier posts, you should not interfere (as a photographer) with the play.

As for freezing the shot, full power flash is the worst thing you can do, since the flash duration is the longest.

Freezing the dart in flight, might actually be better achieved by either opening the aperture or bumping ISO, and reducing flash power / duration. But that again is a personal choice. Either of these actions also starts to get the ambient light back into the equation.

If all you really want is a dart frozen in flight, you don't need the darts game at all. and a bench setup with controlled environment wouold be beter.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but my interpretation was to capture the game not freeze a dart in flight with nothing else in the frame. Setting up at F11 and ISO 100 would require setting exposure for the dart only, abd having all thebackground fade to black due to the light fall off of the flash vs distance, or exposing for the background and burning the flash out as a highlight.

I don't see how you can do both, unless you have much closer to ballanced lighting between flash and eposure.
01-21-2011, 04:41 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
I am very certain that the flash power required for a ISO100 F11 shot would blind the players and they will be extremely pissed.
The flash is going to affect their play more than the tequila?
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