How to take action dart shots in a dim bar?

Ira · 01-19-2011, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by deltoidjohn

What is the maximum sync speed with the Metz?

If you want to really freeze and isolate the subject and the dart, you'll need a fast shutter speed - this will both freeze the action and lower the ambient light.

With a flash, the shutter speed is irrelevant if it's really dark. And if it's not, and since you can't go faster than 1/180 with a flash anyway, that's usually not going to significantly lower ambient light.

You have to use low ISO and small aperture to get what you want here, especially with a flash.

Javaslinger · 01-19-2011, 09:09 PM

I'm trying to understand shutter speeds with flash.. so I know 1/30 sec is not very fast. Which would make me think that the dart would be blurred.

But I guess since the only light is coming from the flash (due to the small aperture) the camera only captures the dart at the instant it's lit by the very fast flash? Which is flashing much faster that 1/30 of a second.. correct?

twitch · 01-19-2011, 09:17 PM

To actually freeze a hand throwing a dart is going to take at least 1/180, probably 1/500. You cannot do that in a dim bar without a flash, and over 1/180 will require an external flash. Be careful though, start popping off your flash during a darts match and it could get ugly.

JeffJS · 01-19-2011, 09:25 PM

With the OP's setup, assuming he ignores me and takes his new flash anyway, he should be able to do High Speed Sync (HSS) and get whatever shutter speed he wants, with a flash.

mtroute · 01-19-2011, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by JeffJS

Please point out to me, in his original post quoted above yours, where he says he wants to do that. I'll admit it would be an interesting shot but that isn't what he asked for.

Quote:

I envision only the subject and his dart frozen in time... As little as else lit or in focus...

You will need flash to "freeze" the dart. You will need to either be at a high shutter speed or use trailing curtain flash. The k5 max flash sync is 1/250, that may not be fast enough to freeze a flying dart.

lavascript · 01-20-2011, 12:21 AM

I'd imagine that just shooting this in X mode would totally kill the ambient, your flash would light just the man and the dart, freeze the action, and give you the effect you want.

But I'm a manual flash guy, don't know much about TTL.

JeffJS · 01-20-2011, 12:55 AM

Originally posted by mtroute

You will need flash to "freeze" the dart. You will need to either be at a high shutter speed or use trailing curtain flash. The k5 max flash sync is 1/250, that may not be fast enough to freeze a flying dart.

It is?

How?

flyer · 01-20-2011, 03:21 AM

If you want the action frozen in time and a very dark background, off camera flash is the way to go. Since the light fall off is the square of the subject distance, putting the flash as close as possible to your subject, without getting it in the picture, will ensure the lowest flash power usable to properly illuminate and freeze the subject, while the light fall-off will make sure the background will remain dark. And, using your flash off camera will give you control over the shadows by moving the flash position.

flyer · 01-20-2011, 03:24 AM

Originally posted by mtroute

You will need to either be at a high shutter speed or use trailing curtain flash. The k5 max flash sync is 1/250, that may not be fast enough to freeze a flying dart.

The shutter speed is mainly irrelevant with flash, and trailing curtain is of no use if you want to keep the background dark. And the K5 flash sync is 1/180 sec.

**Lowell Goudge** · 01-20-2011, 04:52 AM

Originally posted by tuco

The OP wants to freeze the dart in the air. Could need a really fast shutter speed depending how fast its thrown without a flash.

Forget the dart. It would be a waste of time trying to freeze it in flight. You want faces and expressions of the players. A fast prime gives you a bright viewfinder and the narrow DOF to isolate the shooter from the background without flash. Flash would be at least a distraction and would really anger the players.

A photographer should never interfere with the event he is shooting

**Lowell Goudge** · 01-20-2011, 04:54 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by flyer

The shutter speed is mainly irrelevant with flash, and trailing curtain is of no use if you want to keep the background dark. And the K5 flash sync is 1/180 sec.

Shutter speed and ambient light are very relevant with flash

Unless the flash dominates the shot toy can get ghostimg with combined slow shutter speed and flash when the shutter speed and aperture are close to correct exposure without flash

lavascript · 01-20-2011, 05:43 AM

Originally posted by Lowell Goudge

Forget the dart. It would be a waste of time trying to freeze it in flight. You want faces and expressions of the players. A fast prime gives you a bright viewfinder and the narrow DOF to isolate the shooter from the background without flash. Flash would be at least a distraction and would really anger the players.

A photographer should never interfere with the event he is shooting

Indeed. Sound advice, Lowell. I don't know that I agree with the "never" part, maybe "It's best not to..." but nonetheless, the end result I'm envisioning from your description is much more pleasing than a frozen dart hanging in blackness.

lavascript · 01-20-2011, 05:54 AM

Originally posted by Lowell Goudge

Shutter speed and ambient light are very relevant with flash

I could be wrong, but I thought he meant after a certain point.

For instance, a dim bar would be, what, EV3 at the brightest? At reasonable flash settings, say f/8, ISO100, that's a 1/8 shutter speed to properly expose the ambient. By 1/180, you're underexposing by almost 5 stops. Not a huge difference between underexposed by 5 stops and 3 stops, right? They're both going to look pretty much black.

flyer · 01-20-2011, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by Lowell Goudge

Shutter speed and ambient light are very relevant with flash

In a bar, the light level is low enough to be negligible with flash, especially if you shut the diaphragm enough to get a decent depth of field and the flash is close to the subject to isolate it.

Javaslinger · 01-20-2011, 09:46 AM

Thanks everyone ... this thread is really filling in some gaps in my understanding of flash. I haven't made it out to try this yet, but I will!

I was wondering how I would illuminate the subject with the flash without also illuminating everything behind them. And you have answered it! Thanks!!

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01-19-2011, 07:55 PM	#16
Ira Inactive Account Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Coral Springs, FL Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,216	Originally posted by deltoidjohn What is the maximum sync speed with the Metz? If you want to really freeze and isolate the subject and the dart, you'll need a fast shutter speed - this will both freeze the action and lower the ambient light. With a flash, the shutter speed is irrelevant if it's really dark. And if it's not, and since you can't go faster than 1/180 with a flash anyway, that's usually not going to significantly lower ambient light. You have to use low ISO and small aperture to get what you want here, especially with a flash.

01-19-2011, 09:09 PM	#17
Javaslinger Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Blacksburg, VA Photos: Albums Posts: 286 Original Poster	I'm trying to understand shutter speeds with flash.. so I know 1/30 sec is not very fast. Which would make me think that the dart would be blurred. But I guess since the only light is coming from the flash (due to the small aperture) the camera only captures the dart at the instant it's lit by the very fast flash? Which is flashing much faster that 1/30 of a second.. correct?

01-19-2011, 09:17 PM	#18
twitch Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 4,571	To actually freeze a hand throwing a dart is going to take at least 1/180, probably 1/500. You cannot do that in a dim bar without a flash, and over 1/180 will require an external flash. Be careful though, start popping off your flash during a darts match and it could get ugly.

01-19-2011, 09:25 PM	#19
JeffJS Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Michigan, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 7,484	With the OP's setup, assuming he ignores me and takes his new flash anyway, he should be able to do High Speed Sync (HSS) and get whatever shutter speed he wants, with a flash.

01-19-2011, 09:32 PM	#20
mtroute Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Portland OR Posts: 533	Originally posted by JeffJS Please point out to me, in his original post quoted above yours, where he says he wants to do that. I'll admit it would be an interesting shot but that isn't what he asked for. Quote: I envision only the subject and his dart frozen in time... As little as else lit or in focus... You will need flash to "freeze" the dart. You will need to either be at a high shutter speed or use trailing curtain flash. The k5 max flash sync is 1/250, that may not be fast enough to freeze a flying dart.

01-20-2011, 12:21 AM	#21
lavascript Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Baton Rouge Posts: 395	I'd imagine that just shooting this in X mode would totally kill the ambient, your flash would light just the man and the dart, freeze the action, and give you the effect you want. But I'm a manual flash guy, don't know much about TTL.

01-20-2011, 12:55 AM	#22
JeffJS Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Michigan, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 7,484	Originally posted by mtroute You will need flash to "freeze" the dart. You will need to either be at a high shutter speed or use trailing curtain flash. The k5 max flash sync is 1/250, that may not be fast enough to freeze a flying dart. It is? How?

01-20-2011, 03:21 AM	#23
flyer Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Ste-Anne des Plaines, Qc., Canada Posts: 2,013	If you want the action frozen in time and a very dark background, off camera flash is the way to go. Since the light fall off is the square of the subject distance, putting the flash as close as possible to your subject, without getting it in the picture, will ensure the lowest flash power usable to properly illuminate and freeze the subject, while the light fall-off will make sure the background will remain dark. And, using your flash off camera will give you control over the shadows by moving the flash position.

01-20-2011, 03:24 AM	#24
flyer Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Ste-Anne des Plaines, Qc., Canada Posts: 2,013	Originally posted by mtroute You will need to either be at a high shutter speed or use trailing curtain flash. The k5 max flash sync is 1/250, that may not be fast enough to freeze a flying dart. The shutter speed is mainly irrelevant with flash, and trailing curtain is of no use if you want to keep the background dark. And the K5 flash sync is 1/180 sec.

01-20-2011, 04:52 AM	#25
Lowell Goudge Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,888	Originally posted by tuco The OP wants to freeze the dart in the air. Could need a really fast shutter speed depending how fast its thrown without a flash. Forget the dart. It would be a waste of time trying to freeze it in flight. You want faces and expressions of the players. A fast prime gives you a bright viewfinder and the narrow DOF to isolate the shooter from the background without flash. Flash would be at least a distraction and would really anger the players. A photographer should never interfere with the event he is shooting

01-20-2011, 04:54 AM - 1 Like	#26
Lowell Goudge Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,888	Originally posted by flyer The shutter speed is mainly irrelevant with flash, and trailing curtain is of no use if you want to keep the background dark. And the K5 flash sync is 1/180 sec. Shutter speed and ambient light are very relevant with flash Unless the flash dominates the shot toy can get ghostimg with combined slow shutter speed and flash when the shutter speed and aperture are close to correct exposure without flash

01-20-2011, 05:43 AM	#27
lavascript Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Baton Rouge Posts: 395	Originally posted by Lowell Goudge Forget the dart. It would be a waste of time trying to freeze it in flight. You want faces and expressions of the players. A fast prime gives you a bright viewfinder and the narrow DOF to isolate the shooter from the background without flash. Flash would be at least a distraction and would really anger the players. A photographer should never interfere with the event he is shooting Indeed. Sound advice, Lowell. I don't know that I agree with the "never" part, maybe "It's best not to..." but nonetheless, the end result I'm envisioning from your description is much more pleasing than a frozen dart hanging in blackness.

01-20-2011, 05:54 AM	#28
lavascript Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Baton Rouge Posts: 395	Originally posted by Lowell Goudge Shutter speed and ambient light are very relevant with flash I could be wrong, but I thought he meant after a certain point. For instance, a dim bar would be, what, EV3 at the brightest? At reasonable flash settings, say f/8, ISO100, that's a 1/8 shutter speed to properly expose the ambient. By 1/180, you're underexposing by almost 5 stops. Not a huge difference between underexposed by 5 stops and 3 stops, right? They're both going to look pretty much black.

01-20-2011, 08:45 AM	#29
flyer Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Ste-Anne des Plaines, Qc., Canada Posts: 2,013	Originally posted by Lowell Goudge Shutter speed and ambient light are very relevant with flash In a bar, the light level is low enough to be negligible with flash, especially if you shut the diaphragm enough to get a decent depth of field and the flash is close to the subject to isolate it.

01-20-2011, 09:46 AM	#30
Javaslinger Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Blacksburg, VA Photos: Albums Posts: 286 Original Poster	Thanks everyone ... this thread is really filling in some gaps in my understanding of flash. I haven't made it out to try this yet, but I will! I was wondering how I would illuminate the subject with the flash without also illuminating everything behind them. And you have answered it! Thanks!!