Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
05-15-2011, 12:40 AM   #1
Veteran Member
edgedemon's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: London
Photos: Albums
Posts: 305
I want to join the macro club

OK, Im really interested in joining the "Macro by any means necessary club" as some of the pictures I have seen are amazing and also I have seen some of LordV's photos which are stunning.

Im probably going to show my inexperience here, but I have some questions..

When I see close up photo's of insects heads am I seeing the actual photo or am I seeing a crop?

When I mean a crop, is it just a section of the photo cut out? Im thinking opening a jpeg in paint and using the selection tool to cut a section of the photo out - is this what everyone means by a crop?

I ask, because the extreme close ups seem so magnified, and I used to have a 1:2 lens and never had anything like 50% of that sort of close up...

Im going to scour ebay for old glass to try and find two lenses that I can reverse mount together to try this. This will be good for me as it will mean I can save money on buying a dedicated macro lens and I will gain two primes that I can use for general photography.

Is there a general rule of thumb for focal lengths when combining lens? Yeatzee uses pentax F 135mm and a reversed Pentax F 28mm. are there any rules I should know when mixing focal lengths for this type of photo?

Pentax F is an AF lens, could I save money by getting the longer focus length as MF lens and the shorter focal length as a AF lens? Which lens do you focus with? There are some nice MF Vivitar 135mm primes on ebay, but not sure whether they would work in this setup?

Is there a way to work out what magnification you get from mixing two lens together. Id like to start experimenting, but 1:1 is my baseline, I dont want to go lower than that and any thing higher is a bonus, a very big bonus.


Sorry for all the questions, but I wanted to get a few things clear in my head before rushing in and spending money..

Thanks


Last edited by edgedemon; 05-15-2011 at 01:07 AM.
05-15-2011, 01:31 AM   #2
Ash
Community Manager
Loyal Site Supporter
Ash's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 22,678
Welcome to the forum egdedemon.
If you're just starting out in macro, and are happy with 1:1, you may as well just get yourself a manual focus macro lens, such as what are on offer in the forum marketplace. Then again, is your M 100/4 a 1:1 macro? If so it will definitely suffice as long as you know how to stop down an M lens with a Pentax dSLR. I have the Pentax FA 100 f/2.8 macro, which is a very sharp lens very good for macro work to 1:1.

This thread presents many images taken with 1:1 macro lenses: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/lens-clubs/129563-%2Amacro%2A-lens-club.html
05-15-2011, 02:00 AM   #3
Forum Member
luck1's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Pezinok
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 55
To get into macro high magnification photography with pentax, there are 2 quite cheap ways how to do that.

1. To mount a lens reversly on your camera body with a set of extension tubes. You will need a macro revers ring like that

49mm Reverse Reversing Ring Adapter 4 Pentax Body Macro | eBay UK,

then you gona need a set of extension tubes like these

Macro Extension Tube for Pentax K K10D K200D K100D K20D | eBay UK

of course you need a lens. To get a magnification between 3x and 2x you will need a lens around 28 to 35 mm and try to get a f/2,8 lens. As the lens will be reversed you dont need a AF lens = chep (you will be focusing with moving the camera to the object, be aware the focusing distance will be realy low.) You have to check the filter diameter of these lens to get a coresponding macro reverse ring.

Pentax 28mm Wide Angle Lens | eBay UK

Then you gonna need a flash and a difuser, which you can buy or DIY. Check the setup in this video
It will be very practical to have a flash bracket and a flash extension cord.

2. Second option is to get a reversed stacked lens onto another one with a macro reverse adapter
49mm-55mm Male Macro Reverse Coupling Ring Adapter UK | eBay UK
For this you can use your 100 mm lens and stack on another, the magnification ratio is focal length main lens : focal length of reversed stacke lens, for example 100 mm : 50 mm gives you a ration of 2:1

The flash setup is the same as in the first possibility

You will find out that the depth of field with this kind of photography is very shallow, so you will probably try to find out something about focus stacking.

To get great images i would recommend you to get into post processing and to rely on croping. For post process you can use Gimp which is a freeware with many possibilities but is slower than photoshop. I would also recommend you to shoot into raw so you can get as much of your shots as possible
05-15-2011, 04:12 AM   #4
Veteran Member
edgedemon's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: London
Photos: Albums
Posts: 305
Original Poster
Wow - that guy is amazing..

Many thanks for taking the time to post the suggestions and links. They have been very appreciated.
I was too hasty in buying the 100mm lens, it wasn't in as good a condition as stated and has a mark on the lens that means I can't use it any wider than F8 :-(
Initially I will try the reversed lens approach until I can find some suitable glass for the reversed stacked lens approach. I have ordered the adapter rings and extension tubes. so thanks for that.
Moving the camera in and out to focus will be a new experience, Im thinking it will be very limiting for shots of anything movable such as insects, but OK for flowers - I will try it and see.

With the reversed stacked lens approach, how is the image focussed, is it by moving the camera or via the first or 2nd lens? Im trying to get a handle on the type of lens I need as if it is F series or above, 2 of those will probably equal the cost of a macro lens, so might be a non starter. Can I mix M & AF lenses in a stack? Do I focus with the longer FL lens or the reversed one?

Again, thanks as I now have and instant relatively low cost way to try this that I should be up and running with in a couple of weeks - for that Im very grateful..

edit

I have now bought a MF F2.8 28mm lens and I have hope that I might be able to use my 100mm lens as I have seen some articles that state that the primary lens (100mm) should be stopped down slightly for DoF..


Last edited by edgedemon; 05-15-2011 at 04:53 AM.
05-15-2011, 05:12 AM   #5
Veteran Member
pixelsaurus's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Levin, NZ
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 777
You can also use a microscope objective and bellows, http://www.krebsmicro.com/obj_bellows/index.html
05-15-2011, 06:58 AM   #6
Veteran Member
RioRico's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Limbo, California
Posts: 11,264
Cheap(est) ways to go 1:1 and beyond include:

* Put any cheap M42 50mm lens (under US$15) on 50mm of cheap macro tubes (under US$8).
* Change magnification by changing tube sections. Focus by moving camera+lens and/or subject.
* For greater magnification, buy another set of tubes. For flexibility, add bellows (under US$40).
* For lots of fun, use cheap enlarger lenses (straight or reversed) on extension (tubes/bellows).

For better IQ, cheap, use a reversed manual lens.

* Put any such lens on a PK-mount-reversal ring. These are under US$8 for many thread sizes.
* For more magnification, buy sets of cheap PK macro tubes (under $5) and bellows (under $40).
* Working distance is under 2 inches. A shorter lens on more extension = greater magnification.

Lens-stacking can magnify greatly without long extension.

* Use a cheap thread-reversal ring to stack a short manual SECONDARY onto a longer PRIMARY.
* Magnification is the ratio of PRIMARY to SECONDARY. A 35mm stacked on a 105mm = 3:1.
* Leave the Primary wide-open. Control light etc with the Secondary's aperture ring (required).

All these methods lose automatic aperture/light control.

* Flash is tricky unless you spend money on an A-type (including AF) 1:1 macro camera lens.
* You can go beyond 1:1 with decent IQ by adding a Raynox DCR-150 or -250 closeup adapter.
* Macro camera lenses and Raynox adapters cost money, but they're simple to use, and good.

Those are the basics as I see them. Your mileage may vary.
05-15-2011, 07:28 AM   #7
Pentaxian
zman's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Western NY
Photos: Albums
Posts: 474
Welcome Aboard

Hi Edgedemon,

It wasn't too long ago that I also wanted to get into macro photography. A great source for information, tips, and inspiration is to join our Macro Group on this forum. Just look for it under the "GROUPS" tab. It helped me to learn a lot.
05-15-2011, 10:01 AM   #8
Forum Member
luck1's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Pezinok
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 55
With the reversed lens stacked you will focus by moving the camera. Of course you can use any combination of lenses (af, manual) but if a stacked lens is an AF design it would be better it an aperature ring or you would have to tape the aperature lever to have it wide open.
I think that stoping your lens to f 8 should be enough and it should also the sharpest aperature to shoot with.

Good luck

05-15-2011, 10:39 AM   #9
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bronx NY
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 5,599
"Macro by any means..."

My advice to you is to get either a Raynox 125 or a Raynox 250 clip on diopter. The Raynox 250 works better on lenses below 100-135 or so, the Raynox 150 on lenses 100-135mm or greater. The great thing about the Raynox is that it's a clip on so no lens changing necessary, you see a shot, clip on the Raynox and shoot away, when done just unclip it. Unlike many clipons, the raynox actually delivers excellent IQ and contrast. But don't take my word for it check out the raynox macro club

NaCl(excellent inexpensive and easy way to explore macro photography)H2O
05-15-2011, 10:55 AM   #10
Moderator PEG Judges
Kerrowdown's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Highlands of Scotland.
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 30,584
QuoteOriginally posted by edgedemon Quote
I want to join the macro club
Welcome to the forum.

I wanted to join the Playboy club but they wouldn't let me in the door, so joining the the macro club should be a doddle.
05-15-2011, 11:34 AM   #11
Veteran Member
edgedemon's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: London
Photos: Albums
Posts: 305
Original Poster
Thank you for all the replies..

I have the adapters on order, along with a set of extension tubes and a F2.8 28mm lens.
I have joined the macro group :-)
Does it matter which way round the lens are stacked? from what I read, the first lens needs to be wide open with the 2nd stacked lens stopped down.
Im hoping that I can put the 28mm lens on the camera wide open and then stack the 100mm on it at F8 minimum, that way the 100mm should be hopefully be rescued
05-15-2011, 01:47 PM   #12
Veteran Member
yeatzee's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Temecula
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,675
QuoteOriginally posted by edgedemon Quote
Thank you for all the replies..

I have the adapters on order, along with a set of extension tubes and a F2.8 28mm lens.
I have joined the macro group :-)
Does it matter which way round the lens are stacked? from what I read, the first lens needs to be wide open with the 2nd stacked lens stopped down.
Im hoping that I can put the 28mm lens on the camera wide open and then stack the 100mm on it at F8 minimum, that way the 100mm should be hopefully be rescued
For lens stacking use the telephoto on camera. Than you reverse the prime on the end of the tele, filter thread to filter thread.

100/28 = ~ 3.5:1 magnification

just as an FYI, flash is a must if your serious about getting good at macro. It takes years to get good quality macro flash down just so you know, so best start asap
05-15-2011, 02:01 PM - 1 Like   #13
Veteran Member
yeatzee's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Temecula
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,675
QuoteOriginally posted by edgedemon Quote
OK, Im really interested in joining the "Macro by any means necessary club" as some of the pictures I have seen are amazing and also I have seen some of LordV's photos which are stunning.
Check out: Flickr: johnhallmen's Photostream and Flickr: nikolarahme's Photostream who are in my opinion much better (quite possibly the best at what they do).

Im probably going to show my inexperience here, but I have some questions..

When I see close up photo's of insects heads am I seeing the actual photo or am I seeing a crop?
Like this? Phidippus Audax | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Depends. In my case, the above is full frame. I rarely crop much, usually just to make the composition more interesting since you dont have much time setting up when your shooting live insects

When I mean a crop, is it just a section of the photo cut out? Im thinking opening a jpeg in paint and using the selection tool to cut a section of the photo out - is this what everyone means by a crop?
Pretty much

I ask, because the extreme close ups seem so magnified, and I used to have a 1:2 lens and never had anything like 50% of that sort of close up...
1:2 is not close up IMO, by any means. I own a 1:1 $380 sigma macro lens and almost NEVER use it. Instead I use my $20 and $30 lenses reversed on extension tubes or stacked on my Pentax F 135mm. I shoot 2:1 minimum pretty much....

Im going to scour ebay for old glass to try and find two lenses that I can reverse mount together to try this. This will be good for me as it will mean I can save money on buying a dedicated macro lens and I will gain two primes that I can use for general photography.

Is there a general rule of thumb for focal lengths when combining lens? Yeatzee uses pentax F 135mm and a reversed Pentax F 28mm. are there any rules I should know when mixing focal lengths for this type of photo?
Hey there I am! The rules are the primary focal length (attached to your camera) divided by the focal length of the stacked lens on the primary lens = your magnfication. The above setup you described gives me roughly 5:1

Pentax F is an AF lens, could I save money by getting the longer focus length as MF lens and the shorter focal length as a AF lens? Which lens do you focus with? There are some nice MF Vivitar 135mm primes on ebay, but not sure whether they would work in this setup?
The F 135mm I bought for normal photography, it just happened to be fantastic at macro as well https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/133851-macro-s...mparisons.html
I focus by moving the camera or the subject back/forth. Any MF or AF lens will do as long as they have aperture rings

Is there a way to work out what magnification you get from mixing two lens together. Id like to start experimenting, but 1:1 is my baseline, I dont want to go lower than that and any thing higher is a bonus, a very big bonus.
Answered above


Sorry for all the questions, but I wanted to get a few things clear in my head before rushing in and spending money..

Thanks
No problem Feel free to ask more/PM me specifically
05-15-2011, 06:41 PM   #14
Inactive Account




Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Ames, Iowa, USA
Photos: Albums
Posts: 2,965
QuoteOriginally posted by edgedemon Quote
Thank you for all the replies..

I have the adapters on order, along with a set of extension tubes and a F2.8 28mm lens.
I have joined the macro group :-)
Does it matter which way round the lens are stacked? from what I read, the first lens needs to be wide open with the 2nd stacked lens stopped down.
Im hoping that I can put the 28mm lens on the camera wide open and then stack the 100mm on it at F8 minimum, that way the 100mm should be hopefully be rescued
The longer lens is on the camera; here's why:

Two things are involved with macro photography
1) lens focal length
2) distance from lens to sensor

The formula is:

magnification = focal.length/sensor.distance - 1

Extension tubes etc increase #2 to increase magnification

Stacking a short focal length lens on a long one makes a "new lens" with a shorter focal length than either & you want that "new lens" to be far from the sensor; the 100mm lens puts the "new lens" further from the sensor than the 28mm lens would.

But just your 28mm lens on the extension tubes should give you plenty of magnification.

You'll have a bit more "working distance" - distance from lens to subject - if you reverse the 28mm lens on the tubes. Also try the 28 reversed on the 100.

Don't worry about moving the camera or subject to focus; you'll figure out why as soon as you try the first time.

PS you will find focusing rails (or any other way to make small adjustments of camera or subject position) useful. Inexpensive ones from china are ok in my experience.

Last edited by newarts; 05-15-2011 at 06:48 PM.
05-16-2011, 12:20 AM   #15
Veteran Member
edgedemon's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: London
Photos: Albums
Posts: 305
Original Poster
Thank you newarts - appreciated
looks like I will have some playing around to do and will need to find a new 100mm lens, I have seen some vivitar 135mm MF lenses on ebay, so might go with one of them as they seem quite reasonably priced..

Last edited by edgedemon; 05-16-2011 at 01:02 AM.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
135mm, af, bonus, camera, crop, focus, im, lens, mf, pentax, pentax help, photo, photography
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Raynox Macro club audiobomber Lens Clubs 798 05-24-2016 05:39 AM
The Macro Club Christine Tham Pentax K-5 18 07-08-2012 10:29 AM
Can I join the club please? Cuchulainn Pentax Medium Format 11 03-01-2011 11:13 AM
can i join the cool kids club? :D mrrifleman Welcomes and Introductions 2 11-17-2010 10:14 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:45 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top