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06-02-2011, 07:12 PM   #1
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Is it just me???

The, K-x and K110D seem to take better photos then K10D when K10D is at 1600 ISO the noise seems to be worse, is this because they use Samsung image sensor while most others had Sony??

K110D at 1600 ISO
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3489/5791658189_caaf04c2ee_b.jpg

K10D at 1600 ISO
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5264/5645432060_e4a75f8d65_b.jpg
I made it B&W to make it look a little better as it was noisy in color.

06-02-2011, 07:22 PM   #2
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Yes that is true, really for 2 separate reasons. At a basic level, the K110d is an older 6mp sensor - with less mp crammed into the same area, the noise level is diminished. Since the K10d packed more sensors, which are in turn smaller, this results in more noise. On the opposite end, the K-x is several years of advancement in sensor technology to the point where even with more megapixels it is much better at handling noise. I am sure there are much lengthier ways to describe what I've said, but in the end you are simply right!
06-02-2011, 07:25 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by pxpaulx Quote
Yes that is true, really for 2 separate reasons. At a basic level, the K110d is an older 6mp sensor - with less mp crammed into the same area, the noise level is diminished. Since the K10d packed more sensors, which are in turn smaller, this results in more noise. On the opposite end, the K-x is several years of advancement in sensor technology to the point where even with more megapixels it is much better at handling noise. I am sure there are much lengthier ways to describe what I've said, but in the end you are simply right!
Thanks, because I think I was going crazy here lol
I guessing it's the same with K20D? If not I upgrade to K20D and sell both K110D and K10D.
06-02-2011, 08:39 PM   #4
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I had a K100D Super. It's known for having good high-ISO performance, especially for its era (as if that were a long time ago!).

However, the K10D, which is similar the K200D I have, should be good up to around 800 ISO and creates some nice, sharp looking images.

I sold my K-x and went with a K-5 and K200D. Almost gives me the best of both worlds, but the ISO is a limitation on the K200D.


Last edited by DSims; 06-02-2011 at 08:51 PM.
06-02-2011, 08:46 PM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxlover22 Quote
Thanks, because I think I was going crazy here lol
I guessing it's the same with K20D? If not I upgrade to K20D and sell both K110D and K10D.
The K20d should be an improvement on both at higher ISO, and the K-x even a little better than that: it's newer still and is quite good for that. (I'm not sure how the K-7 compares to the K-x, but they're about the same generation, I'd think.
06-02-2011, 08:59 PM   #6
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The K110/100D had a max ISO of 3200 but the K10D only went to 1600. That was indeed the K10D's Achille's heel, but at ISO 100-200, it was unbeatable. Seemed to me that Pentax wanted a lower base ISO at the expense of high ISO capability at the time.
06-02-2011, 09:46 PM   #7
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Yea I think I going to sell it on ebay and get K20D
06-02-2011, 10:33 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
The K20d should be an improvement on both at higher ISO, and the K-x even a little better than that: it's newer still and is quite good for that. (I'm not sure how the K-7 compares to the K-x, but they're about the same generation, I'd think.
I think the K-7 is more comparable with the K20D than the K-x, which didn't make much sense to me when I started looking at Pentax DSLR, that an entry level model had superior performance than the more expensive, so called flagship model, the K-7.

Thanks,

06-02-2011, 10:57 PM   #9
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The K-x came after the K-7, hence the newer sensor technology was implemented into the entry-level model before one could be put in a flagship model.
06-03-2011, 06:54 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxlover22 Quote
The, K-x and K110D seem to take better photos then K10D when K10D is at 1600 ISO the noise seems to be worse, is this because they use Samsung image sensor while most others had Sony??
I thought the K10D and K200D 10.2 mpx sensor *is* a Sony, not Samsung. Am I wrong?
06-03-2011, 08:23 AM   #11
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it's not just you, but some of your logic is wrong

QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxlover22 Quote
The, K-x and K110D seem to take better photos then K10D when K10D is at 1600 ISO the noise seems to be worse, is this because they use Samsung image sensor while most others had Sony??
first of all, all the pentax 6MP cameras, i.e. all *istDXX and K1XX cameras use a sony CCD sensor, perhaps the K series had a later version but essentually the sensor in all was the same, and although it is somwhat lower in resolution, had a much better high ISO performance capability than the K10D due to noise susceptibility of the smaller receptors in the 10MP sensor.

Both the 6 and 10 MP sensors were sony CCD.

The K20D and K7D both use the samyang 14MP CMOS Sensor and have superior high ISO capabilities than the K10D.

I am not sure about later sensors, in the K-r, K-x but I think they are CMOS, as is the K5 which I am certain is a sony product.

the megapixel race seems to be tapering off, in preference for better noise control and greatly improving high ISO performance.
06-03-2011, 09:43 AM   #12
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I learn something new today, did not know K10D had Sony image sensor (was not sure), Sony did horrible job compare to the others with less noise, is there any purpose why the K10D was made like it was? what advantage dose it have over others?
06-03-2011, 09:55 AM   #13
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The sensor in the K10D was not "horrible" for its day at all. When comparing to the K110D, it's easy to be mislead into thinking the K10D is worse than it actually is simply because the K10D is much higher resolution and thus if you view images at "100%", you are magnifying the noise more. Compare images at similar sizes and the results should be more comparable. In the case of your sample images, though, it not the size that is throwing off the comparison, but the very different nature of the shots themselves. Not all ISO 1600 shots from the same camera will look equally noisy - a lot has to do with the color of the light, the distribution of light and shadow in the scene, and the amount and type of detail in the scene itself. The only way to get a good comparison is to shoot the exact same scene in the exact same conditions with the same lens and exposure settings in both cameras.

However, while the sensor used in the K10D is capable of performing as well or better at high ISO than the sensor in the K110D, the rest of the hardware in the K10D was not taking advantage of the sensor as well as some other cameras using the same sensor. The K200D, for instance, has noticeably better high ISO performance than the K10D, and it manages to beat the K110D in this department whereas the K10D doesn't.

As for why someone would release a camera with high ISO performance not quite as good as its predecessor, the answer is, high ISO is not the main determinant of camera quality. Far more images are shot at low ISO than high. The K10D had a lower native ISO than the K110D; it was the first Pentax camera to offer ISO 100. And having a lower base ISO means more amplification is required to reach ISO 1600, so the sensor had to be significantly better at low ISO in order to be competitive at all at high ISO.

And indeed, the K10D performance at low ISO is simply stunning, and since that's where the vast majority of photographs are taken, it was a reason a reasonable tradeoff to make. Too bad they didn't use the supporting hardware in the K200D in the K10D, though then you could have the stunning low ISO performance as well as high ISO performance that equals or betters the previous generation of cameras.

As for the K-r, well, that's a much newer sensor; no surprise that they've made improvements. Pretty much all cameras in the last 2 years outperform all cameras made more than 2 years ago.

Last edited by Marc Sabatella; 06-03-2011 at 09:00 PM.
06-03-2011, 10:33 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
The K-x came after the K-7, hence the newer sensor technology was implemented into the entry-level model before one could be put in a flagship model.
I know that now but when one is casually looking at cameras in a store, it would seem strange that an entry level camera would have higher performance than the flagship model. This sort of haphazard marketing does nothing to bolster consumer confidence in the Pentax products. Pentax got it right when they introduced the K-r at the same time as the K-5, now there is a clear cut demarcation line between the two models, in terms of features and technology.

Thanks,
06-03-2011, 04:12 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by excanonfd Quote
I know that now but when one is casually looking at cameras in a store, it would seem strange that an entry level camera would have higher performance than the flagship model. This sort of haphazard marketing does nothing to bolster consumer confidence in the Pentax products. Pentax got it right when they introduced the K-r at the same time as the K-5, now there is a clear cut demarcation line between the two models, in terms of features and technology.

Thanks,
But "lower noise" does not translate to "higher performance." It's just one aspect of performance.

Regarding marketing, given the limitations that a company like Pentax has in terms of engineering and manufacturing, it's possible that if two cameras are released at the same time, one camera will be less than it could have been, because the company probably doesn't have the resources to actually develop both at the same time.

Paul
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