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08-29-2011, 06:33 PM   #46
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Some jurisdictions, don't know if you are in one of them, has lemon laws to protect consumers from the occasional unserviceable product. Be careful with reversing credit card charges, that could be considered fraud.
Where I am, generally you have to send a product in for repair 3 times before they have to replace it, the concept being that it is unsuitable for what it's intended purpose is.
As an aside, if you are working professionally, you really should have back up equipment so that this sort of thing doesn't raise your blood pressure.
Perhaps buy one from B&H, or someone with a generous and long return policy and use it while your camera is in the shop, and then return it at the end of the process.


Last edited by Wheatfield; 08-30-2011 at 02:01 PM.
08-29-2011, 06:40 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by SpecialK Quote
Because it is cheaper to repair a product than give you a new one.

When your Ford pops a fuel pump, they don't give you a new car, even if it's new.

That is what warranties are for and you take your chances.

Too bad about your camera, though.
The circuit board in a K-5 would be equivalent to an engine blowing and you bet Ford would be providing me a loaner for a month or so or they would have the lemon law up their keister.
08-29-2011, 06:42 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Some jurisdictions, don't know if you are in one of them, has lemon laws to protect consumers from the occasional unserviceable product. Be careful with reversing credit card charges, that could be considered fraud.
Where I am, generally you have to send a product in for repair 3 times before they have to repair it, the concept being that it is unsuitable for what it's intended purpose is.
As an aside, if you are working professionally, you really should have back up equipment so that this sort of thing doesn't raise your blood pressure.
Perhaps buy one from B&H, or someone with a generous and long return policy and use it while your camera is in the shop, and then return it at the end of the process.

I think that is kind of a crappy thing to do. If I return something, it is because of me not liking it etc. I wouldn't buy a $1000 suit for an event and return it the next day either.
08-30-2011, 02:03 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
The circuit board in a K-5 would be equivalent to an engine blowing and you bet Ford would be providing me a loaner for a month or so or they would have the lemon law up their keister.
And as long as they did what the warranty says they would do, you would lose that lawsuit.
For a lemon law to come into effect, you would have to prove that the failure was across the board, in that it affected many, if not all of that particular car.
A one off, where a component fails doesn't prove that the product is a lemon, it only proves that one component failed.


QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
I think that is kind of a crappy thing to do. If I return something, it is because of me not liking it etc. I wouldn't buy a $1000 suit for an event and return it the next day either.
Why? It's not like as if B&H will be out anything.
They'll send it back to Pentax, and it and the repair will be on their nickel.

08-30-2011, 03:17 PM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
And as long as they did what the warranty says they would do, you would lose that lawsuit.
For a lemon law to come into effect, you would have to prove that the failure was across the board, in that it affected many, if not all of that particular car.
A one off, where a component fails doesn't prove that the product is a lemon, it only proves that one component failed..
No you don't have to prove many were like that. However, if they have to send the damn thing back to Japan, I guarantee I would have a very good chance to win the argument in a Florida small claims court. It would go to arbitration first and then failing resolution in front of a 6 person jury for up to $5k. Besides, Pentax seems to be replacing a lot of boards in the K-5. But with the lemon law, it is about the individual unit. The point I am making is Pentax needs to get off their asses in Colorado and speed some of this stuff up. It takes them a month to change a light bulb. The circuit board going out twice taking multiple weeks to fix is ridiculous and to use the fuel pump analogy, this is more like the engine or tranny being replaced twice and in the shop 25% of the time it is under warranty.


QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Why? It's not like as if B&H will be out anything.
They'll send it back to Pentax, and it and the repair will be on their nickel.

This is what you said:
QuoteQuote:
Perhaps buy one from B&H, or someone with a generous and long return policy and use it while your camera is in the shop, and then return it at the end of the process.
That is pretending to buy a ~$1300 item from BH to use for the better part of a month running up 3 or 4000 actuations on. BH is then stuck with a used camera which you had no intentions of buying. I purchase from them and Ador. Both have dealt with me strait up and that is all I ask of them and I do the same thing. I don't have a B&M here within at least 200 miles and they likely don't have Pentax. Therefore, I would like to see good B&M with good internet presence (formerly they had good mail order/phone order) be able to keep competitive prices.

Last edited by Blue; 08-30-2011 at 03:30 PM.
08-31-2011, 08:31 AM   #51
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I do have a K-20 as a back up. But I have a few sessions coming up that are in low / funky light and that is where my K-5 excel's over the K20 as far as noise is concerned.

I just got an email from Pentax with a pre-paid shipping label. I never agreed that is what I wanted as a solution, "for my troubles" I am about to call them and tell them where they can stick that label! UGH!
08-31-2011, 08:39 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote


This is what you said: That is pretending to buy a ~$1300 item from BH to use for the better part of a month running up 3 or 4000 actuations on. BH is then stuck with a used camera which you had no intentions of buying. I purchase from them and Ador. Both have dealt with me strait up and that is all I ask of them and I do the same thing. I don't have a B&M here within at least 200 miles and they likely don't have Pentax. Therefore, I would like to see good B&M with good internet presence (formerly they had good mail order/phone order) be able to keep competitive prices.
I know what I said, I also know how the industry works. B&H (for example) wouldn't be stuck with a camera. After that many actuations, it would go back to Pentax.
It's their return policy, so they must be able to live with it.
08-31-2011, 09:01 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I know what I said, I also know how the industry works. B&H (for example) wouldn't be stuck with a camera. After that many actuations, it would go back to Pentax.
It's their return policy, so they must be able to live with it.
Sure it is their return policy and that is one of the reasons I deal with them and Ador. However, they aren't running a loan service. What do you suppose Pentax does with those units that get sent back with ~2000 actuation simply because people decide they didn't like them? Probably as refurbished units but there aren't that many such units that show up so I wonder. Some firms resell them as open box (Ador) or used items (Amazon) if they are simply returns because the customer didn't like them. However, if you were to get a camera, use it for 3.5 weeks for several shoots with the intentions of not keeping it from the onset, I would call that being dishonest but just hiding behind the "no questions asked Policy). If they ever have to back off that policy, I will be sure to "thank" you.

Edit: Reason Codes

Change of Mind
Damaged in Transit
Defective
Duplicate order
Item Not as Expected
Website Issues
Shipping Error
Unwanted Gift
Other

I guess your example would fall under other, never intended to keep it to begin with.Hysterical


Last edited by Blue; 08-31-2011 at 09:09 AM.
08-31-2011, 09:11 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by pamones Quote
I do have a K-20 as a back up. But I have a few sessions coming up that are in low / funky light and that is where my K-5 excel's over the K20 as far as noise is concerned.

I just got an email from Pentax with a pre-paid shipping label. I never agreed that is what I wanted as a solution, "for my troubles" I am about to call them and tell them where they can stick that label! UGH!

Rental may be an option at this point.
09-05-2011, 06:40 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by pamones Quote
That's what I insisted, but all I got was some bullish line about "we don't give replacements when the camera can be fixed". But really another 6 weeks when i've waited 3 already and that was an estimate. Are they rowing a boat by hand over seas to get the part??

Loosing faith in Pentax - as I sent my last check in to pay off my K-5 yesterday.


Anyone want to buy a K-5 and a slew of lenses in 6 weeks
What lenses do you have to sell?

Besides, the replacement policy is based on the dealer-user relationship and thus quite specific. Same thing could happen to you with any other camera brand. It was just bad luck.
09-05-2011, 08:04 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by dragra Quote
What lenses do you have to sell?

Besides, the replacement policy is based on the dealer-user relationship and thus quite specific. Same thing could happen to you with any other camera brand. It was just bad luck.
I had a sensor to fail in a Nikon and they replaced the sensor even though it was well off warranty because it was a known problem. I was out shipping one way to NY. I had it back working in less than 2 weeks. It still works. They have had the OP's camera more than he has and it is under warranty.
09-05-2011, 08:18 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Perhaps buy one from B&H, or someone with a generous and long return policy and use it while your camera is in the shop, and then return it at the end of the process.
This is dishonest. It's abuses like this that cause companies to review and change their policies.

As far as the camera issue, I have a suggestion. The first would be to demand a refund. I don't know where the K-5 was purchased...so unsure of who would issue the refund. Start with where it was purchased, try Pentax and finally, the credit card company. May I suggest that you consider a K-x for the low light situations? Both, my husband and I each have a K-x. Neither of us have had any issues. It is an incredible camera that is phenominal in low light! And you'd save some money in the long run.
09-05-2011, 08:56 AM   #58
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Reading this is deja vu for me. I had been a loyal Pentax shooter for longer than many of you have been alive. Nearly made a switch to another brand because Pentax was taking so long to go digital. Then the first cameras like the *istD and K10D came out and were solid performers without any serious issues. When the K20D came out, that all changed. At least for heavy users and professional work.

I could easily get flamed off the forums for posting this opinion, but if you are making money as an event shooter with photography, this is the wrong brand. Terrible reliability with DA* lenses and frankly other than sharpness, the most important lens, the DA*16-50mm sucks.
The K20D isn't well enough built to handle hard use (I killed 3 of them in one year and as a result had to buy a total of 5 K20D's to make it through 2010) and after that, it was time for a D700. That camera is a tank and can do this type of work without fear. I don't see anything in the K-7 and K5 that changes that opinion.

Then to add insult to injury, service is horrible when you need it as this case (and my experience) clearly shows. With Canikon, you may still have issues but they treat their customers much better, particularly if you have a service plan.

Sure a camera like this costs more but so does having 2 or 3 backup Pentax's because you can't trust the camera to work when you need it to. I carried 3 bodies all the time and on more than one occasion was using the 3rd body when the other 2 failed. There is no panic quite like shooting on your last leg with your fingers crossed.

As an enthusiast camera line, in many ways it might be one of the best. Some fantastic glass and class leading bodies. For professional work, this isn't the brand any more.

My advice is to get this body fixed or some type of replacement and sell it all when you have a lapse in paid work. Then look at a D700 (closest to Pentax in features and feel) or a used 5D (don't go to the 5DMkII) and move on. It's tough to do this and it's expensive but once you do, you will know you made the correct choice.

Last edited by Peter Zack; 09-05-2011 at 09:14 AM.
09-05-2011, 12:11 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
Reading this is deja vu for me. I had been a loyal Pentax shooter for longer than many of you have been alive. Nearly made a switch to another brand because Pentax was taking so long to go digital. Then the first cameras like the *istD and K10D came out and were solid performers without any serious issues. When the K20D came out, that all changed. At least for heavy users and professional work.

Actually, it changed well before the K20. I switched from Nikon to Pentax in the 80s because I fell in love with the lenses, and fell out of love with how large Nikons were getting. The F4 was a horse. When I was shooting Nikon, I had an F2s with a 50/1.4 and no back up equipment at all. Somehow I managed to luck out and never have an equipment failure through many dozens of weddings. At some point, I bought an FM, but never really gave it any use. The F2s was just that reliable. In the early 80s I sold the F2 to finance a Bronica ETRs, and then later bought an F3, and at that point I bought another body (FE2 with motor), which gave me 3 Nikon bodies.
I used the FE when I wanted a higher speed framerate, but for the most part, it was the F3 that did all the work. I hated the viewfinder, I found the readout was really badly placed, but like the F2, the camera never missed a beat.
As mentioned earlier, all that changed in ~1986 when I switched over to Pentax. Initially, I bought an LX and a K1000. The LX turned out to be a fail for candid wedding photography because of it's insanely stupid flash control, so I ended up using the K1000 for wedding work. Eventually, I ended up with 3 LX, 2K1000, a Km and an MX before I felt like as if I had enough back up bodies.
I've only once had a body quit on the job through it's own failure, and that was a Pentax, specifically an MX. Were I dependent on a camera for my income, I would buy just enough Nikon gear to do what I need. Probably a couple of D700 bodies and a short and midrange zoom, and perhaps though probably not a couple of primes. Pentax has truly spoiled me with their prime lenses.
I still don't like Nikon lenses as much as Pentax lenses, but if the camera is putting food on my table, I would compromise glass for reliability.

Out of curiosity Peter, what was going wrong with your K20 bodies? Were they just wearing out or was something else going on with them?
09-05-2011, 12:52 PM   #60
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Wheatfeild, My progression through Pentax was something similar to yours with Nikon. Starting with a Spottie and many of the models we all know well. I shot weddings with LX's (agree on the flash) and 2 K1000's which might just be one of the more reliable cameras ever built. Advanced to a 6x7 and 645 until switching to digital a few years later. I did kill 2 LX's because of the carbon buildup isse that was happening with the flash trigger system. Both needed new circuit boards.

The K10d's I had were solid cameras. In fact one of mine exceeded 125,000 frames without an issue. I kept that body through all my K20D issues and it was always a reliable spare. I can't remember anyone having serious issues here on the forums with K10D's. At least not consistently. The K20D was another issue. Sensor failures (rows of dead pixels), circuit board failures (repeatedly) that manifested themselves in different ways. Mirror failures twice where it simply fell out. Then the oft repeated DA* motor failures.

I was so set to buy a pair of K-7d's when 2 of my K20D's failed (both were circuit board issues) at the same wedding and I had to shoot the rest of the day with the trusty K10D. Oh and these cameras had reasonable shutter counts of under 40K.

I agree that the primes from Pentax are second to none. In fact probably only to be compared to certain German lenses. But Nikon has bridged that gap in some respects and although the prices are lofty, the options are there.

I really think the issue is internal toughness. An event shooter is very hard on gear. They get banged around and are not treated with the kindness other shooters would handle their gear. You try hard to take care of the gear but in a fast paced situation, it's just unavoidable. These higher end bodies are built with this understanding and can take the occasional bump without problems.
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