ND Filter shutter speed example

Smilesy · 10-04-2011, 04:13 PM

I've been looking at reviews for the LCW Fader ND mkII. It's driving me nuts, one is positive the next is negative, then back to positive. I really like the idea of having just one filter in place of many but don't want waste $100 on a filter. I wouldn't mind too much if it was just a small colour cast, as this seems to be an issue with many expensive nd filters anyway, its more than people talk about a lose in sharpness and I think that would bother me a bit more. Sharpness is what I like most about my DA 16-45mm. If anyone has any with and without landscape examples using a Fader ND I'd love to see them.

abacus07 · 10-04-2011, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by BigDave

Neutral density IS additive (ND4 + ND8 = ND12) However the density (neutral density) increases just a slight bit more because of the additive nature of the two filters. There is a concern as has been mentioned, of reduced image quality. This can be attributed to inter-reflections between the filter surfaces. Unless the filers have a good multicoating on them, these inter-reflections can be a problem. This manifests as reduced sharpness even ghost imaging. And I have found it seems to be worse for digital cameras and some lenses than with film cameras. If someone could explain why, I would certainly like to know!

Regards,

Shouldn't the bolded be ND32?

2 stops + 3 stops = 5 stops

2^5=32

To the OP:

A 3 stop ND is a good starting point for someone's first ND. And a 10 stop black glass looks like a fun filter to use.

I stack a CPL and an ND if it's sunny and I'm photographing water. But I wouldn't stack ND filters unless absolutely necessary. I also make a special point to only buy MC filters and use a lens hood. It's likely that you have an expensive lens (or possibly a high quality MF lens) so don't be cheap on the rest of your gear.

twitch · 10-04-2011, 07:14 PM

The nice thing about the DA15 and the other limiteds is that they take the small 49mm filters which are not only much cheaper, but are easy to put in your pocket. While I'm giving my 2c here, I think over 8 stops is where the ND filters get interesting. I use my 10 stop way more than my 6 stop, and I've just got a 13 stop which after some initial testing may become my new favourite.... too much is never enough

Chex · 10-04-2011, 10:40 PM

13 stop? at what point are you just going to use opaque black glass and hope for something to come through it?!

twitch · 10-05-2011, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by Chex

13 stop? at what point are you just going to use opaque black glass and hope for something to come through it?!

I just figured out if I stack my 10 stop and 13 stop together I would need an 8 hour exposure in bright sunlight

Smilesy · 10-05-2011, 03:02 PM

Lol, need some pretty impressive batteries for that.

**Digitalis** · 10-05-2011, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by twitch

I just figured out if I stack my 10 stop and 13 stop together I would need an 8 hour exposure in bright sunlight

no you wouldn't because infared light would go straight through both filters, but I suppose the practical upshot of this fact is that you don't need to shell out more cash for an expensive and difficult to obtain IR filter.

to explain my point I photographed a selection of ND filters through my Hoya R72 IR filter - from left to right : Hoya NDX400 [ HMC], Hoya ND8 [HMC] and a Hoya [HMC] Linear polariser and as you can see IR is able to sneak through all of them the Lee big stopper is better at blocking IR due to the density of the filter itself but some IR still sneaks through.

For those who are interested this image was a 25 second exposure at f/4 on a unmodified Pentax K10D.

Last edited by Digitalis; 10-05-2011 at 06:56 PM.

twitch · 10-05-2011, 07:06 PM

I do have this IR block filter (the opposite of an IR filter) as I intended to stack it on my 10-stop, but I bought it before I read the fine print about it not working well < 30mm-ish eqiv focal length. So it's currently sitting unused in my drawer at home, it was kind of expensive too

**Digitalis** · 10-05-2011, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by twitch

I intended to stack it on my 10-stop, but I bought it before I read the fine print about it not working well < 35mm-ish eqiv focal length.

hot mirror filters aren't cheap, that must have really bummed you out. If it is any consolation IR filters don't really mix with the DA15mm f/4 either the resolution in the corners goes straight to hell with IR wavelengths. I suspect it is because the light at those wavelengths doesn't bend as easily as visible light does.

twitch · 10-05-2011, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by Digitalis

hot mirror filters aren't cheap, that must have really bummed you out. If it is any consolation IR filters don't really mix with the DA15mm f/4 either the resolution in the corners goes straight to hell with IR wavelengths. I suspect it is because the light at those wavelengths doesn't bend as easily as visible light does.

Yeah it seems it wont play nice with the DA15, but I should get it out and try it on my DA21 which is right on the limit of what B+W say is OK for the filter. Sounds like a project for tomorrow...

steve1307 · 10-05-2011, 07:38 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by twitch

Yeah it seems it wont play nice with the DA15, but I should get it out and try it on my DA21 which is right on the limit of what B+W say is OK for the filter. Sounds like a project for tomorrow...

Sounds interesting. More interesting that whatever it is that I'm supposed to be doing at work.
(actually it's lunchtime so that's OK)

Smilesy · 10-05-2011, 07:40 PM

There are a lot of Aussies posting in this topic. Just wondering where you get your filters from, especially people from Melbourne.

twitch · 10-05-2011, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by Smilesy

There are a lot of Aussies posting in this topic. Just wondering where you get your filters from, especially people from Melbourne.

I get mine from "mainline photo" (B+W Filters), they're reputable. I don't trust anyone on ebay (apart from these guys) for filters due to the high number of fakes circulating.

twitch · 10-05-2011, 08:48 PM

Actually according to this page on the Schneider web site (makers of B+W filters) the only official distributor of B+W filters in Australia is Mainline Photo.

Smilesy · 10-05-2011, 08:51 PM

I would love to get some B+W filters, but I think they are out of price range at the moment, I'm just not sure that I will use ND filters enough at the moment to justify $100. That said Twitch some of you pictures around Melbourne have really inspired me to give it a try.

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10-04-2011, 04:13 PM	#16
Smilesy Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Melbourne Posts: 138 Original Poster	I've been looking at reviews for the LCW Fader ND mkII. It's driving me nuts, one is positive the next is negative, then back to positive. I really like the idea of having just one filter in place of many but don't want waste $100 on a filter. I wouldn't mind too much if it was just a small colour cast, as this seems to be an issue with many expensive nd filters anyway, its more than people talk about a lose in sharpness and I think that would bother me a bit more. Sharpness is what I like most about my DA 16-45mm. If anyone has any with and without landscape examples using a Fader ND I'd love to see them.

10-04-2011, 05:42 PM	#17
abacus07 Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Taiwan Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,075	Originally posted by BigDave Neutral density IS additive (ND4 + ND8 = ND12) However the density (neutral density) increases just a slight bit more because of the additive nature of the two filters. There is a concern as has been mentioned, of reduced image quality. This can be attributed to inter-reflections between the filter surfaces. Unless the filers have a good multicoating on them, these inter-reflections can be a problem. This manifests as reduced sharpness even ghost imaging. And I have found it seems to be worse for digital cameras and some lenses than with film cameras. If someone could explain why, I would certainly like to know! Regards, Shouldn't the bolded be ND32? 2 stops + 3 stops = 5 stops 2^5=32 To the OP: A 3 stop ND is a good starting point for someone's first ND. And a 10 stop black glass looks like a fun filter to use. I stack a CPL and an ND if it's sunny and I'm photographing water. But I wouldn't stack ND filters unless absolutely necessary. I also make a special point to only buy MC filters and use a lens hood. It's likely that you have an expensive lens (or possibly a high quality MF lens) so don't be cheap on the rest of your gear.

10-04-2011, 07:14 PM	#18
twitch Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 4,571	The nice thing about the DA15 and the other limiteds is that they take the small 49mm filters which are not only much cheaper, but are easy to put in your pocket. While I'm giving my 2c here, I think over 8 stops is where the ND filters get interesting. I use my 10 stop way more than my 6 stop, and I've just got a 13 stop which after some initial testing may become my new favourite.... too much is never enough

10-04-2011, 10:40 PM	#19
Chex Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: The 'Stoke, British Columbia Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,678	13 stop? at what point are you just going to use opaque black glass and hope for something to come through it?!

10-05-2011, 02:59 PM	#20
twitch Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 4,571	Originally posted by Chex 13 stop? at what point are you just going to use opaque black glass and hope for something to come through it?! I just figured out if I stack my 10 stop and 13 stop together I would need an 8 hour exposure in bright sunlight

10-05-2011, 03:02 PM	#21
Smilesy Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Melbourne Posts: 138 Original Poster	Lol, need some pretty impressive batteries for that.

10-05-2011, 06:49 PM	#22
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by twitch I just figured out if I stack my 10 stop and 13 stop together I would need an 8 hour exposure in bright sunlight no you wouldn't because infared light would go straight through both filters, but I suppose the practical upshot of this fact is that you don't need to shell out more cash for an expensive and difficult to obtain IR filter. to explain my point I photographed a selection of ND filters through my Hoya R72 IR filter - from left to right : Hoya NDX400 [ HMC], Hoya ND8 [HMC] and a Hoya [HMC] Linear polariser and as you can see IR is able to sneak through all of them the Lee big stopper is better at blocking IR due to the density of the filter itself but some IR still sneaks through. For those who are interested this image was a 25 second exposure at f/4 on a unmodified Pentax K10D. Last edited by Digitalis; 10-05-2011 at 06:56 PM.

10-05-2011, 07:06 PM	#23
twitch Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 4,571	I do have this IR block filter (the opposite of an IR filter) as I intended to stack it on my 10-stop, but I bought it before I read the fine print about it not working well < 30mm-ish eqiv focal length. So it's currently sitting unused in my drawer at home, it was kind of expensive too

10-05-2011, 07:09 PM	#24
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by twitch I intended to stack it on my 10-stop, but I bought it before I read the fine print about it not working well < 35mm-ish eqiv focal length. hot mirror filters aren't cheap, that must have really bummed you out. If it is any consolation IR filters don't really mix with the DA15mm f/4 either the resolution in the corners goes straight to hell with IR wavelengths. I suspect it is because the light at those wavelengths doesn't bend as easily as visible light does.

10-05-2011, 07:16 PM	#25
twitch Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 4,571	Originally posted by Digitalis hot mirror filters aren't cheap, that must have really bummed you out. If it is any consolation IR filters don't really mix with the DA15mm f/4 either the resolution in the corners goes straight to hell with IR wavelengths. I suspect it is because the light at those wavelengths doesn't bend as easily as visible light does. Yeah it seems it wont play nice with the DA15, but I should get it out and try it on my DA21 which is right on the limit of what B+W say is OK for the filter. Sounds like a project for tomorrow...

10-05-2011, 07:38 PM - 1 Like	#26
steve1307 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Sydney Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,130	Originally posted by twitch Yeah it seems it wont play nice with the DA15, but I should get it out and try it on my DA21 which is right on the limit of what B+W say is OK for the filter. Sounds like a project for tomorrow... Sounds interesting. More interesting that whatever it is that I'm supposed to be doing at work. (actually it's lunchtime so that's OK)

10-05-2011, 07:40 PM	#27
Smilesy Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Melbourne Posts: 138 Original Poster	There are a lot of Aussies posting in this topic. Just wondering where you get your filters from, especially people from Melbourne.

10-05-2011, 08:36 PM	#28
twitch Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 4,571	Originally posted by Smilesy There are a lot of Aussies posting in this topic. Just wondering where you get your filters from, especially people from Melbourne. I get mine from "mainline photo" (B+W Filters), they're reputable. I don't trust anyone on ebay (apart from these guys) for filters due to the high number of fakes circulating.

10-05-2011, 08:48 PM	#29
twitch Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 4,571	Actually according to this page on the Schneider web site (makers of B+W filters) the *only* official distributor of B+W filters in Australia is Mainline Photo.

10-05-2011, 08:51 PM	#30
Smilesy Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Melbourne Posts: 138 Original Poster	I would love to get some B+W filters, but I think they are out of price range at the moment, I'm just not sure that I will use ND filters enough at the moment to justify $100. That said Twitch some of you pictures around Melbourne have really inspired me to give it a try.