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03-28-2012, 09:37 PM   #16

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If you're only shooting 135 format film, you really haven't seen sharp film shots fine grain film or not. Taking a film format beyond 10X enlargement is pushing it for max IQ. Really large prints from small positive/negatives are often made from a duplicate using a large format camera.

Last edited by tuco; 03-28-2012 at 11:14 PM.
03-29-2012, 07:34 AM   #17
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but K25 could be printed up to 4 feet by 6 and still appear sharp from 3 feet away. No contest
Yes and you only need 40 DPI for a billboard to look sharp. But I'm not sure that digital hasn't caught up to the finest emulsions, I too used to use the finest emulsions. But you're talking about really slow film. The thing with sensors is, no one is going to make a sensor that slow. The big advantage to film is, you basically changed your "sensor" (the film) to suit your shooting conditions. They don't have a sensor yet, as far as I know, that can emulate every film ever made. But I bet if you use the 645D or D800 you can print to 6 feet wide and be sharp even up close. At 120 DPI those cameras would give you is adequate to produce a sharp image image up to 58 inches. You'd have to go under 100 dpi to to get to 72 inches and the acuity of the hum a eye is about 600 dpi, but that's from like 6 inches away, and modern printers use algorithms that keep things looking sharp, even at lower resolutions.

So I think there might be a contest... and the digital would very likely win. Especailly when you consider that you'd be shooting up to 800 ISO against 10 ISO.
03-29-2012, 07:45 AM   #18
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one thing to consider, and this applies to high ISO specifically. I did some shots using 3200 ISO B&W film, and revisited the same location with my DSLR at 3200 ISO.

what I did note, especially at high ISO is that with digital, noise begins to impact sharpness, and while film has grains, it seems when I look at high resolution scans of the film, that hard lines and edges appear sharper and better defined on film, than they do in digital. Perhaps it is a combination of film behavior, and also not cropping in as much,

Now, that is not comparing the K5, which might be a wholly different story at 3200ISO.
03-29-2012, 11:32 AM   #19
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Sharpening isn't necessarily "artificial"; it's just a natural part of the process of demosaicing an image recorded on a Bayer-type sensor. sure, additinal sharpening can also be applied, but one way or another, the demosaicing algorithm has to do *something* with the edges of objects or there would always be a colored fringe around everything. In some way, pixels must be combined with neighboring pixels to form the true color, and that means making decision about where the borders actually are.

I suspect that 80% of what you are seeing is simply comparing film prints from a lab versus an image on a computer monitor or a print from an inkjet printer - that is, it isn't the image that is sharper from film, but just how you are displaying it. The other 20% might be that the particular demosaicing algorithm you are using might have defaults for how they handle edges that happen to be less aggressive than you would prefer.

03-29-2012, 11:44 AM   #20
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There is a lot more going on in a digital camera than you might think, isn't there.

What with sensors that require filters and then some sharpening being applied to overcome the filter.

Any idea how much 'sharpening' would be done on the image before we see it as a Raw image?
03-29-2012, 10:01 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by mtansley Quote
Any idea how much 'sharpening' would be done on the image before we see it as a Raw image?
Zero sharpening, because we can't see a digital RAW image any more than we can see a latent image on film. Each 'image' is only data. Each must be developed to become visible. And sharpening necessarily occurs during RAW development -- as Marc said, until it's sharpened, everything is blurry, haloed.

So somebody -- maybe you, maybe a PP techie, maybe the camera's design engineers -- gets to decide just how to set the sharpness, color, contrast, saturation, white balance, etc levels. A RAW file contains much data. All that data is *real*. Much of that data must be discarded before an image is visible. Whatever data remains is still real (unless it's contaminated). Set any degree of sharpness during RAW development, and the image remains absolutely real. Whether you LIKE that level of sharpness is another matter, eh?

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