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06-03-2012, 11:57 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Culture Quote
Thanks for the explanation I think I am getting some understanding.

But if using a 50-F gives me 1/60, then its difficult shooting people moving. I have blur in a lot of my pictures due to the 1/60.
As stated above, the flash is the light source, so the effective shutter speed when using the flash is like 1/100000. No blur!

06-04-2012, 01:46 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
As stated above, the flash is the light source, so the effective shutter speed when using the flash is like 1/100000. No blur!
Only if you're shooting in in situation where there is hardly ambient light. At the moment that there is 'enough' ambient light, you will still get blurred images.

By the way. 1/100000 is a bit overdone. Metz 48 varies between 1/25000 and 1/125 second; Pentax AF540 between 1/1200 and 1/20000 second.
06-04-2012, 04:46 AM   #18
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What we see here is the camera thinking for you.

the camera is programmed to attempt to set, when in any auto mode, the shutter speed, aperture and ISO to make the correct exposure first, and then add flash.

SO with a 50mm lens, a good reliable hand holdable speed, is about 1/60 of a second, if you put a zoom lens on, you would find the shutter speed would change with focal length.

the shutter speed is set to attempt to insure that you don't get ghosting or a double image due to camera movement because the flash will illuminate your subject, but wo will the ambient light.

I find the fully automated flash a bit difficult to control, especially if you forget about your settings, so I always use flash in manual, and set the shutter speed and aperture where I want them to give the blend of background or ambient light I want (as opposed to the camera trying to illuminate the entire scene) and then let the flash take care of itself
06-04-2012, 05:34 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Culture Quote
I have noticed that my shutter speed is stuck at 1/60 whenever I pop up the camera flash.

When I close it, it starts to float depending on where I am pointing it, But it comes up it stays at 1/60.

I am shooting in AV mode.
QuoteOriginally posted by Culture Quote
Its a 50 F. And from the comments above it sounds about right that it is at 1/60. Though I am yet to completely understand. But I will just have to accept it.
No, you don't have to accept it. All you have to do is take your camera out of Av mode and put it in either X-sync mode or Manual mode. In X-sync mode your shutter speed will be set to 1/180 regardless of aperture/ISO setting. If you need more ambient than 1/180 allows, use manual mode, set your aperture where you want it and your shutter speed wherever you want it below 1/180. Start with 1/125 and adjust to taste.

06-04-2012, 09:45 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by sterretje Quote
Only if you're shooting in in situation where there is hardly ambient light. At the moment that there is 'enough' ambient light, you will still get blurred images.
Baby steps. Trying to explain to someone that doesn't get it.

QuoteQuote:
By the way. 1/100000 is a bit overdone. Metz 48 varies between 1/25000 and 1/125 second; Pentax AF540 between 1/1200 and 1/20000 second.
I actually have no idea -- I was quoting earlier post on that.
06-04-2012, 09:46 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by sterretje Quote
Yep, that is a nice explanation. But my explanantion was why the shutter speed does not change.


Use M mode on the camera. Set the aperture and ISO so that there is sufficient reach to properly expose the subject (the formula can be found in the camera manual as well as in the manual of external flashes). Set the shutter speed to 1/125 or 1/180s depending on needs / effect required. Do NOT use auto-ISO.
I know but i tried to keep it as simple as possible so that he could grasp what's going on a bit, are at least provide a bases for reading your comment better.

I agree with you on using M-mode, it's very easy to do.
06-04-2012, 09:49 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
I actually have no idea -- I was quoting earlier post on that.
I also didn't have solid numbers but i knew it is quite a bit faster then the fastest shutterspeed of the camera depending on the type of flash and the settings.
So the number i named was simply to make gave an idea what's going on rather then to be used for actually calculations and such
06-04-2012, 09:50 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Culture Quote
Thanks for the explanation I think I am getting some understanding.

But if using a 50-F gives me 1/60, then its difficult shooting people moving. I have blur in a lot of my pictures due to the 1/60.
No, you are still misunderstanding. I suggest you read my explanation again, with the comments by others in mind as you do so. The shutter speed *does not matter* because the subject is only illuminated for the very brief duration of the flash. The shutter might be open for 1/60", but if the subject is only illuminated for the 1/10000" or so that the flash is on, it won't matter.

Unless there is so much ambient light that 1/60" is enough to exposure your subject decently without flash. In which case, you need to turn down your ISO and/or increase your shutter speed - using M mode, for example - to the point where the ambient light is not contributing to exposure. But if the scene is fairly brightly lit, you may find that flash is just not going to help. If the light is such that even at your lowest ISO setting and the highest shutter speed you can get with flash (1/180") you are already seeing your subject fully illuminated without flash, then the flash is contributing anything. In which case, you're better off turning the flash off and just increasing shutter speed.

Again, a book or web site explaining basic photographic principles would be a very good use of a few hours of your time.

06-04-2012, 11:04 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
snip......

Unless there is so much ambient light that 1/60" is enough to exposure your subject decently without flash. In which case, you need to turn down your ISO and/or increase your shutter speed - using M mode, for example - to the point where the ambient light is not contributing to exposure. But if the scene is fairly brightly lit, you may find that flash is just not going to help. snip.......
I think this is the problem.

The whole issue of using auto modes and flash is really a PITA as far as i am concerned, because even the manual does not explain the logic process, which is, as far as I can determine is:
- follow the MTCF curve within practical hand held limits for shooting stationary objects, but only bring ISO down from the maximum auto ISO set, once you get to optimukm lens MTF curve. The process will be, start wide open atr 1/60 (for the 50mm in question) then stop the lens down to about F8 as light increases, then let ISO start coming down, as far as the exposure rules permit, and then allow a minor flash on the basis the camera thinks you are attempting fill flash to remove shadows.

for me, I prefer to start in manual mode, set the iso to what I want, shutter to 1/180, then Aperture for depth of field/ or average exposure value I want (between -4/5 stops if I want the background black, or -1 stop if I only want fill flash, or anywhere in between to control background illumination, and I let the flash do the rest.
06-04-2012, 10:24 PM   #25
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I am begininng to see my mistake here. this was indoors with some places having a lot of ambient light. Those shoots were better because I turned off the flash. In some places it was tricky because it looked like there was enough light and having a fast lens you will think it will be ok. But then again I shot most of my pictures at ISO100.

One of the reasons I hate fidgeting with the ISO setting is that I dont like noise that starts creeping in after 400. So I leave it at 100 or 200. I know that is not acceptable.

I think I have become too comfortable in Av and Tv mode. Its time to use M mode more.

This guide has also been a good read FLASH PHOTOGRAPHY 101 .
06-04-2012, 10:26 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Marc Sabatella Quote
No, you are still misunderstanding. I suggest you read my explanation again, with the comments by others in mind as you do so. The shutter speed *does not matter* because the subject is only illuminated for the very brief duration of the flash. The shutter might be open for 1/60", but if the subject is only illuminated for the 1/10000" or so that the flash is on, it won't matter.

Unless there is so much ambient light that 1/60" is enough to exposure your subject decently without flash. In which case, you need to turn down your ISO and/or increase your shutter speed - using M mode, for example - to the point where the ambient light is not contributing to exposure. But if the scene is fairly brightly lit, you may find that flash is just not going to help. If the light is such that even at your lowest ISO setting and the highest shutter speed you can get with flash (1/180") you are already seeing your subject fully illuminated without flash, then the flash is contributing anything. In which case, you're better off turning the flash off and just increasing shutter speed.

Again, a book or web site explaining basic photographic principles would be a very good use of a few hours of your time.
I think this was part of my problem.
06-06-2012, 11:35 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Culture Quote
I am begininng to see my mistake here. this was indoors with some places having a lot of ambient light.
Mixed light is indeed tricky. Sounds like you're now off to a good start in terms of understanding how things work and how you might try dealing these situations. You'll find it on ongoing learning process, though.

QuoteQuote:
One of the reasons I hate fidgeting with the ISO setting is that I dont like noise that starts creeping in after 400. So I leave it at 100 or 200. I know that is not acceptable.
Well, I don't know about "not acceptable", but you do have to learn what the tradeoffs are, so you understand that sure, all else equal, you'd like to minimize noise, there are worse problems that you may have to deal with instead. You might also experiment with the NR settings in your camera, and the very easy to apply NR settings available with most modern PP software (two clicks and you can process a whole shoot!). And don't judge the results of your tradeoffs by how the image looks when you pixel peep - realize that no one but you will ever see your images that way, and even you wouldn't *normally* be looking at your images that way (you can't even see the whole image!). Most people - including you most of the time - will see your images reduced to fit on screen, or even reduced more to fit on a 4x6" print. What might seem like too much noise when pixel peeping at 100% is usually not an issue at all in the real world. Low light shooting often involves high ISO - 1600 and above - and that's just a fact of life. That doesn't stop images like this - at ISO 3200 (equivalent), on a camera nowhere near as good at this sort of thing than modern cameras, in a setting here flash would have been completely unacceptable - from being worth having taken:



I used a very light hand with NR because it just doesn't bother me that much, so you don't have to pixel peep very hard to see signs of noise. But in the grand scheme of things, given the choice between taking this picture and not - and make no mistake, this picture *would not have happened* below ISO 400 - what would you choose?
06-06-2012, 01:25 PM   #28
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Very nice, Marc. DA70?
06-07-2012, 08:32 AM   #29
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M120/2.8
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