[VoiceOfReason]

I had a guy at an anime convention last weekend who was shooting with a D800 asking me how in the world I was gettign the results I was with my K5 and Tamron 17-50 (we compared shots and mine were blowing his away). I showed him what setting I was using, and advised him that if he did the same he should be able to get some good stuff too. He wasn't the only D800 user, and there was also a 5DIII user there too. None of them gave me any greif about what I was using, and in fact one fo them was amazed that Pentax was around sicne he had not seen one sicne the 90s. He checked out my camera and said it felt really good in the hand too.

[zoolander]

Hi guys,

You may or may not have noticed that the world loves Canon/Nikon, or so it gives the impression to me. I find work posted by those two brands all over the internet. Kelby training, Lynda.com and many more do trainings about Canon and Nikon products, but not Pentax. I know that Pentax is no less, just maybe the range of products may not be as much as the big two, but with Sigma,Tamron, Samyang etc offering quality lenses for Pentax there shouldn't be a shortage of images on the web. But that's not the case, or am I missing something?
Is it the marketing game that is being played? or is there more to it?

I believe Pentax was a dominate player in the 60's and 70's, but its fortunes ran out when it missed the boat on auto focus in the 80's. Ever since then Pentax has been relegated to being an "average" brand - or entry level SLR. Pentax's early manual lenses are superb.

I believe Canon and Nikon's fortunes came down to auto focusing lenses, and Canons ended up being the fastest, and winning against Nikon. So the 90's saw Canon beat Nikon, but Nikon came out with lens stabilization first, and then Canon 1 year later, but Canon still had the faster auto focus and better glass (and still to this day).
So in a nutshell: Pentax did not stay on top of the game in the 80's, and the professionals moved to mostly Canon and Nikon, because of the lenses. IT'S WAS THE AF LENSES ! (funny how i'm interested in acquiring Pentax manual lenses today).

Losing the professional market, Pentax moved to producing affordable cameras which were slightly cheaper than Nikon or Canon. My first SLR was a Pentax MZ 50 because I couldn't afford the more expensive brands like Canon or Nikon. Now knowing what I know, i won't touch Canon and Nikon with a ten foot poll, and if Pentax engages in gouging and exploiting its customers I too will abandon Pentax like I did with Nikon. Though I am new again to Pentax i have heard about the recent lens price hikes, and if they continue with it then I'll have to walk. I WILL ONLY SUPPORT AN HONEST BRAND !

1. Most sales staff only know about Canon and Nikon, and push their favorite on the customers.
   
2. Customers walk into a shop and want a big brand and feel more confident when they see a massive line-up of model (in-spite many being junk). The customer buys junk because he/she thinks they're buy a good brand, but have bought the junk model within that brand. And if you want the "good model" in the "good brand" you have to pay through the nose - and this is the gouging and exploitation I'm talking about (they're dishonest brands selling substandard cameras to unsuspecting customers. Eat your heart out GM, Ford and BMW).
   
3. The big brands have big advertising revenues, and they dominate the camera magazines which always give glowing reviews to the brands that support the magazines - conflict of interest.
4. Another reason for Pentax being neglected is because of presentation in stores.
   
5. The overall presentation of the products, they're premium cameras (? well compared to the big brands) but they do not have the appearance of being a premium product.
   
6. The brand needs a logo freshen up, or to be binged - Something which Marc Newson could learn a thing or two about ! lol
   
7. The brand needs to put out a series of full frame lenses prior to launching the full frame camera to declare it seriousness - 12-24mm, 24-70mm, 70-200mm, a fisheye etc etc. A top lens line up is just as important as a good body.
   

So there's a few reasons in my own opinion.

if you're looking for images from pentax cameras just google some.

[voyager13]

The brand needs to put out a series of full frame lenses prior to launching the full frame camera to declare it seriousness - 12-24mm, 24-70mm, 70-200mm, a fisheye etc etc. A top lens line up is just as important as a good body

That was VERY interesting zoolander. As you mention Pentax hopefully comes out with full frame lenses for FF camera from Pentax, I am wondering if I won't be able to use my old manual primes like M's and Tak's, or even the DA's, on an FF body whenever that happens? In other words, I wonder if the FF will be a K-mount!!?

[northcoastgreg]

if Pentax engages in gouging and exploiting its customers I too will abandon Pentax like I did with Nikon. Though I am new again to Pentax i have heard about the recent lens price hikes, and if they continue with it then I'll have to walk. I WILL ONLY SUPPORT AN HONEST BRAND !

The recent Pentax lens price hikes have more to do with incompetence than exploitatoin or dishonesty. Pentax was trying to get its product into stores, which required reigning in the ultra-bargain internet dealers. Pentax handled this very badly and this led to prices getting out of hand. In the process, Pentax did not raise their own margins, only the margins for retailers.

Outside of Canon and Nikon, hardly anyone is making money selling cameras; so it's likely prices will go up on cameras and lenses.

One of Pentax's chief problems is that the areas where they have the strongest advantages (ergonomics, handling, interface, rendering of lenses) can only be appreciated through use of their products. While placing cameras in stores can allow consumers to appreciate the ergonomics, I'm not sure how you get people to appreciate, let alone recognize the importance of features like handling and interface, especially when there are still consumers who judge cameras based on megapixels.

[BrianR]

That was VERY interesting zoolander. As you mention Pentax hopefully comes out with full frame lenses for FF camera from Pentax, I am wondering if I won't be able to use my old manual primes like M's and Tak's, or even the DA's, on an FF body whenever that happens? In other words, I wonder if the FF will be a K-mount!!?

It would be extremely shocking if they came out with a full-frame camera that couldn't use their existing lens line up (smaller image circle issues of some of the DA lenses aside). A big part of the appeal of the Pentax DSLR's has been compatibility with legacy glass, and people are willing to take hacksaws to very expensive pentax limited lenses to put on canon full frame cameras. Completely shutting out the existing lens lineup and having to produce an entirely new set of lenses for a hypothetical FF Pentax would be just shocking.

[Blue]

The recent Pentax lens price hikes have more to do with incompetence than exploitatoin or dishonesty. Pentax was trying to get its product into stores, which required reigning in the ultra-bargain internet dealers. Pentax handled this very badly and this led to prices getting out of hand. In the process, Pentax did not raise their own margins, only the margins for retailers.

Outside of Canon and Nikon, hardly anyone is making money selling cameras; so it's likely prices will go up on cameras and lenses.

One of Pentax's chief problems is that the areas where they have the strongest advantages (ergonomics, handling, interface, rendering of lenses) can only be appreciated through use of their products. While placing cameras in stores can allow consumers to appreciate the ergonomics, I'm not sure how you get people to appreciate, let alone recognize the importance of features like handling and interface, especially when there are still consumers who judge cameras based on megapixels.

The problem is that there weren't that many ultra-bargain internet dealers. All they did was impact the real dealers like Ador, BH, Abes etc. who have had store fronts as well as mail order and phone order businesses long before internet sales.

[em-tx]

That was VERY interesting zoolander. As you mention Pentax hopefully comes out with full frame lenses for FF camera from Pentax, I am wondering if I won't be able to use my old manual primes like M's and Tak's, or even the DA's, on an FF body whenever that happens? In other words, I wonder if the FF will be a K-mount!!?

I really hope yes. I read the article with CEO, which question that. If not its a great reason to jump a ship for me. That would leave me 2 possibilities: Sell my K5 and all what I have from Pentax till it has some kind of value, or sell K5 and DA lens and keep MX and keep getting old M lens for MX - which means I will never buy new lenses from Pentax/3rd party = loss of money for company. I will for sure jump the ship being angry and with resentment.

[Laurentiu Cristofor]

When you reach a critical mass of success, it helps fuel more growth, so you get a chain reaction of sorts. That doesn't happen for Pentax because they don't have enough adoption at this point.

Here are some of the advantages that Canikon enjoy from their market share:

- they are used by more pros, so you're more likely to see their cameras in the hands of journalists, for example
- beginners are more likely to know already someone that owns Canikon equipment
- Canikon systems are a safer choice because the market for used equipment is more active
- you can find a lot more Canikon lenses to rent

People that do try Pentax are usually happy, because they get more bang for the buck up to a point. But few people are willing to risk trying out a brand with which they are not familiar.

[snake]

When you reach a critical mass of success, it helps fuel more growth, so you get a chain reaction of sorts. That doesn't happen for Pentax because they don't have enough adoption at this point.

Here are some of the advantages that Canikon enjoy from their market share:

- they are used by more pros, so you're more likely to see their cameras in the hands of journalists, for example
- beginners are more likely to know already someone that owns Canikon equipment
- Canikon systems are a safer choice because the market for used equipment is more active
- you can find a lot more Canikon lenses to rent

People that do try Pentax are usually happy, because they get more bang for the buck up to a point. But few people are willing to risk trying out a brand with which they are not familiar.

It also helps that Canon and Nikon both produce excellent equipment. To be a fan of an underdog company is one thing, but to deny their performance and capability and to minimize their contributions to the photo world is quite wrong.

They didn't only get where they are through marketing and distribution, if that's what you're implying.

[Laurentiu Cristofor]

It also helps that Canon and Nikon both produce excellent equipment. To be a fan of an underdog company is one thing, but to deny their performance and capability and to minimize their contributions to the photo world is quite wrong.

They didn't only get where they are through marketing and distribution, if that's what you're implying.

Nope, that was not what I was implying. I do not believe marketing made any modern photographic company famous. My point was just that things get somewhat easier as you get more successful. Pentax had such momentum but they lost it decades ago. The result is that now, even if they make decent cameras, it is not enough to get the attention of customers.

[snake]

Nope, that was not what I was implying. I do not believe marketing made any modern photographic company famous. My point was just that things get somewhat easier as you get more successful. Pentax had such momentum but they lost it decades ago. The result is that now, even if they make decent cameras, it is not enough to get the attention of customers.

I will agree with that to some extent...

...but look at Fuji in the last three years.

There's no excuse and no company is fixed to where they are or resigned to a fate rooted in a past era.

[Laurentiu Cristofor]

I will agree with that to some extent...

...but look at Fuji in the last three years.

There's no excuse and no company is fixed to where they are or resigned to a fate rooted in a past era.

Fuji has got attention with their X100, because they put out a unique product of good quality. Canikon didn't have any equivalent. Meanwhile, PRIC keeps fighting Canikon heads on in DSLR territory. Is it surprising that they don't make progress? Not to me, but a lot of users here seem to be puzzled. Fuji has some problems too, but other companies could learn from their experience. It remains to be seen if Ricoh will do so. IMO, if they don't announce something this spring, it will be too late by fall.

[snake]

Fuji has got attention with their X100, because they put out a unique product of good quality. Canikon didn't have any equivalent. Meanwhile, PRIC keeps fighting Canikon heads on in DSLR territory. Is it surprising that they don't make progress? Not to me, but a lot of users here seem to be puzzled. Fuji has some problems too, but other companies could learn from their experience. It remains to be seen if Ricoh will do so. IMO, if they don't announce something this spring, it will be too late by fall.

I don't see your point.

Fuji is aiming to be #3 in the world right now and it looks like they soon will be. They did it by reinventing themselves, proving that no camera company is fixed or resigned to a fate set decades ago, like Pentax. From what I've been reading, Fuji made $100+ million alone from the X100.

[Clavius]

Fuji has got attention with their X100, because they put out a unique product of good quality. Canikon didn't have any equivalent. Meanwhile, PRIC keeps fighting Canikon heads on in DSLR territory. Is it surprising that they don't make progress? Not to me, but a lot of users here seem to be puzzled. Fuji has some problems too, but other companies could learn from their experience. It remains to be seen if Ricoh will do so. IMO, if they don't announce something this spring, it will be too late by fall.

Exactly! Canon and Nikon are in a classic trench war together. Other companies shouldn't be willing to join in and get stuck as well.

Pentax should not be so afraid of trying something entirely new. (Like very well specced FF EVIL) That piece of the market is wide-open. Sooner or later Sony will beat them to it and Pentax will have no niches left to claim.

[Ash]

Sooner or later Sony will beat them to it and Pentax will have no niches left to claim.

Sony with its fantastic ergonomics and intuitive UI not leaving anything for Pentax? I think not.
FF EVIL may well be different now, but it must also be widely accepted enough for the price being asked for. It won't be a cheap camera, and therefore aimed at the more higher end user/professional, which may cause a clash in expectations for shooting under tough conditions (e.g. fast action). The MILC technology needs more time to mature and become more sophisticated, rather than be brought out as a brand's debut for a larger format camera when dSLR technology is still very practical and responsive.