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01-16-2013, 12:59 PM   #106
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I should have specified I was talking abotu teh sponsorship thing.

01-16-2013, 02:36 PM   #107
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Sponsorship means nothing in terms of professionalism, but pros would find it hard to resist professional-grade equipment being given to them.
I don't see Pentax doing this, but I don't think they'll need to if their flagship cameras are appealing in themselves.
01-16-2013, 02:52 PM   #108
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Personally, I don't care. Pentax is different. I take pride in being different.

If you bring a CaNikon, other togs assume that you know what you are doing. If you bring a Pentax, they think you have just been fooled by the salesguy. That helps me concentrate on making photos because nobody will interrupt me with gear talk. They get to judge me later on by my photos.

I hate it when I'm just like everyone else.
01-17-2013, 03:34 AM   #109
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QuoteQuote:
I hate it when I'm just like everyone else.
So you think being different just NOT to be like anyone else is any highly achievable goal?
I dont think so, it just "hey iam cool, i am a hipser , i dont care what other peoples think "-Meme

I think why many pros might have a problem with the way Pentax is going, because there is no clear way the try to achieve.

Going WR ? Yes, but some DSLR arent WR
The "top notch" limiteds arent WR either.

Going Outdoor? Where is a WR Flash, ? Maybe things like Wireless!!! Tethering

Going Professional? Where are FF, Local Shops, Service Partners ? Renting-Services?


I just want to point out that pentax doesnt make it clear to customers and professionals which path they go.
And even if they say it, we are too stubbord to believe them, anyone recalls that interview where they said "yes we are working on a FF-DSLR which well be top-notch".... No because there is non, but despite that we have some funny people who see the mystical Pentax FF-DSLR around the next corner...

If iam buying new DSLR related things i think iam going to switch to Nikon with 14mm-200mm f2,8 G Lenses (14-24, 24-70, 70-200) next spring or summer.
Not because i absolutly need something like that, but because i can and i want to see what this lineup can deliver.
Will it make me an as good as most of you photographer? No, most likely not, but i can slowly work my way up with better lenses, accessory etc.

01-17-2013, 04:28 AM   #110
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mehlsack Quote
So you think being different just NOT to be like anyone else is any highly achievable goal?
I dont think so, it just "hey iam cool, i am a hipser , i dont care what other peoples think "-Meme
I still don't care what YOU think. Even if Pentax had the same lineup of lenses and cameras as CaNikon, people will still buy CaNikon. It's just how it is. Casual shooters who can't recognize a DSLR from a bacon, who absolutely got no plans of going pro are buying CaNikon. Not Pentax or Oly or Sony.

With it's current lineup, Pentax has more than enough to cater for serious enthusiasts. Gear whores, OTOH, will never get any satisfaction. CaNikon shooters are still lusting for the latest Fuji or worse, Leica. It's not Pentax who as a problem.
01-17-2013, 05:54 AM   #111
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I just pointed out that "being diffenerent" by itself is not that useful.

Implying i am a "Gear-Whore" is not very nice either and i am sure there are other enthusiats like you and me who doenst feel their needs satiyfied without being an GW.
For me, like i already stated its not the gear itself, its the future, the way the company is going to do business in future.

I am fine with the lightwight, outdoor, nerd niche, but then please stick and commit to that.
01-17-2013, 07:39 AM   #112
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After just doing an exhaustive study of what the D800, the D600 and the 5D mk III and K5IIs, I decided to go with my current practice. Skip an incarnation, in this case the K-5 II and buy at the end of the cycle after that the K-5 III or whatever, after the initial price has dropped to $1000. I'm so committed to the plan I even bought a second K-5. Meanwhile, before I buy my next camera body I'll add the SIgma 8-16, the Sigma 70 2.7 macro, the Tamron 70-20 2-8, the Pentax 15 and an M 400 5.6.

If Pentax comes out with an FF, I'll have the Pentax DA 35 2.4, FA 50, Tamron 90, Sigma 70, Tamron 70-200 and M 400 5.6 waiting for it. Full frame or not... those are all excellent lenses for my APS-c.

I'm not feeling this great urge to upgrade. The benefits to doing so are minimal. After all the days of research, I still don't know what all the fuss is about.

If for some reason I do decide to upgrade, at present my choices would be the D800 and Nikon 12-24 at $5k. That would make a difference if I ever did any large scale printing, Until I see a market for prints over 20x30", I'm good, thank you very much.

The problem with going big is to get the same image in almost all repects on an FF DSLR, as my DA*60-250 F4 gives me on APS-c it would cost $7000, and yes Canikon fanboys, the F4 is important. So realistically, I can't consider replacing my APS-c for telephoto work. Only the D800 would replace my K-5 with the same size image for the same lens. But even with a D800 I have to buy all new lenses.

The best strategy at least for me is stay APS-c and plan to do so. When Pentax comes out with an FF, make the decision then...

QuoteQuote:
I am fine with the lightwight, outdoor, nerd niche, but then please stick and commit to that.
As an ex corner linebacker, I'm a little confused about the lightweight outdoor nerd quote. Aren't nerds the guys we used to catch in the halls and make shine our spikes before games? I'm not sure how you're confusing me with them... you might want to redefine your terms. I can still make you polish my camera lenses, capiche?..
01-17-2013, 09:14 AM   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
As an ex corner linebacker, I'm a little confused about the lightweight outdoor nerd quote. Aren't nerds the guys we used to catch in the halls and make shine our spikes before games? I'm not sure how you're confusing me with them... you might want to redefine your terms. I can still make you polish my camera lenses, capiche?..
Heh. I was a Center - and an Outside Linebacker (it was a very small school) - but also academically in the top 10%. I tutored some of the rest of the team. I also weighed about 165 (did I say it was a very small school?), so I guess I actually am the "lightwight, outdoor, nerd niche."

In NASCAR the manufacturers want to win races on Sunday so they can sell cars on Monday. That (part of the auto) marketing strategy worked for decades - right up to the 2009 GM bankruptcy and bailout. Now, while Chevy wins lots of races and a Malibu is actually a better vehicle than a Camry or an Accord, GM has a hard time selling them. Nobody wants to be seen driving a car made by "Government Motors," so to keep volume up they sell stripped versions to rental fleets (which just makes the brand even less attractive). The brand has been damaged, possibly beyond repair.

I don't believe Pentax is damaged like GM. But due to decades of marketing neglect, it has NO brand image at all. Hoya slowed product development then followed with accessory discontinuations so there isn't even a partial spectrum toolbox for certain serious photographers (though plenty such as Normhead are just fine with what they have). They never really developed the "Different" theme, nor the "Outdoors" Millennial theme with marketing reinforcement. They really didn't do ANYTHING (except the K-7 viral stuff).

I can't tell you how many people say, "Pentax still makes cameras? I had a K1000!!" when they see me out and about.

Pentax is neglected becasue Pentax neglected itself. Everything else discussed here is just the details


Last edited by monochrome; 01-17-2013 at 09:21 AM.
01-17-2013, 09:15 AM   #114
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Each to their own, but I think for most people the future direction of the manufacturer comes fairly low down on their list of reasons for choosing a camera and certainly does explain the perception why Pentax is neglected. Actually, it sounds more to me like the kind of argument made by someone looking for a reason not to buy a Pentax based on reasoning other than the quality of the camera.

Given that I still have a Pentax film SLR from over 20 years ago, and my previous Sony digital camera lasted 10 years, by the time I get to replacing my new K-30 the market will have evolved again; not because of decisions Pentax make, but because of the evolution of available technology.

To put this into some context: I first took a digital image in 1993. Not with a camera, but with a second generation CCD on a telescope measuring 375x242 pixels. The advances in technology and its affordability over time have more to do with the manufacture of the chips and relatively little to do with any one camera company being a particular visionary.

At the end of the day the honest truth is that Canon and Nikon pay for their position in the market. Pentax doesn't buy enough advertising etc. each has a proportionate market share. It is probably as simple as that.
01-17-2013, 09:29 AM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Heh. I was a Center - and an Outside Linebacker (it was a very small school) - but also academically in the top 10%. I tutored some of the rest of the team. I also weighed about 165 (did I say it was a very small school?), so I guess I actually am the "lightwight, outdoor, nerd niche."

In NASCAR the manufacturers want to win races on Sunday so they can sell cars on Monday. That (part of the auto) marketing strategy worked for decades - right up to the 2009 GM bankruptcy and bailout. Now, while Chevy wins lots of races and a Malibu is actually a better vehicle than a Camry or an Accord, GM has a hard time selling them. Nobody wants to be seen driving a car made by "Government Motors," so to keep volume up they sell stripped versions to rental fleets (which just makes the brand even less attractive). The brand has been damaged, possibly beyond repair.

I don't believe Pentax is damaged. But due to decades of marketing neglect it has NO brand image at all. I can't tell you how many people say, "Pentax still makes cameras? I had a K1000!!" when they see me out and about.

Pentax is neglected becasue Pentax neglected itself. Everything else discussed here is just the details
I agree totally, that's why I suggested they start their own stores. Pentax has damaged their own reputation, now they need to do something drastic to make up ground. I'd suggest nude models in their ads, ( Pentax, favourite camera of Porn) but we all know they aren't going there.

On the football thing, in grade 10 my football team, our team hadn't won a game in 5 years, despite putting one player in the pros and producing a college quarterback. Our principal said if we didn't win a game they were canceling football. The coaches dredged the junior varsity team, for every player that might help them, so there I was 15 years old, on a team of 16-18 year olds, 145 pounds playing right guard. But thanks to that, in later years when I was a running back on offense, I was always an excellent pass blocker. I'd recommend every running back play in the line for a year. Despite playing both ways for every team I played for, my all-star selections were for my play at corner. I just love hitting people more than I enjoy scoring touchdowns... nerd schmerd.
01-17-2013, 09:31 AM   #116
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/irony on
QuoteQuote:
As an ex corner linebacker, I'm a little confused about the lightweight outdoor nerd quote. Aren't nerds the guys we used to catch in the halls and make shine our spikes before games? I'm not sure how you're confusing me with them... you might want to redefine your terms. I can still make you polish my camera lenses, capiche?..
I am not in the "beating old people" business
/irony off

No, ich meant lightwight and small regarding the cameras and lenses, nerdy refered to the amount of research you have to invest to find out about pentax or even find a shop-dealer
And iam aware of the capabilities of Pentax's K20 or K5 i was allowed to be a photographer at the "vier-schanzen-tournee" and was able to get some shots from people flying 5m away with 100km/h with my Da*300 and the Sigma 70-200f2,8

What i meant is, that the strange ways pentax tries to do business sometimes are not very appealing, not to an "educated" customer, nor to the shop-owner who has to live by selling DSLRs... Thats (in my perspektive) is why they are neglected.
01-17-2013, 10:24 AM   #117
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Here's the thing, I think Pentax makes nicer, more solid, bodies than Nikon and Caon bodies of similar price. I played with a Nikon D3100 recently and it felt like a piece of junk. My theory would be that if Pentax went for molded plastic bodies instead of using magnesium, cheaped down their lenses, etc. while maintaining their current price structure, maybe they'd have more money for a massive advertising on the level of Nikon and Canon.

A client of mine, a guy I was taking canoeing in the park had his Canon zoom roll off a log at a campsite. ( He'd rested it there while changing lenses.) It broke. The next day we were at an osprey nest and he missed some great shots. I have had much worse "dropses" with some of my gear and , not a dent, scratch or ding. My K20D fell off the back seat of the car once with a big zoom on it and hit the ground so hard it cracked the viewfinder lens in two places. But, it still works great, both camera and lens and I don't even notice the cracks. It does mean I won't be able to sell it, but it makes a nice back up.

What I'm saying is, if you want Pentax to be like Canon and Nikon, there could be a price involved. Those advertising dollars are in the end paid for by people who buy the cameras. Do you want to pay for advertising to increase market share, or do you want nice solid ergonomically designed cameras that will take a beating.

For me, as long as they are staying in business, I don't want Pentax to be Canon or Nikon. I like the Steve jobs approach. Instead of 30 or 40 different models many of which do pretty much the same thing, simplify your product line, to a few models and use economy of scale to create value. In many ways, if Pentax were to take control of their marketing the way Apple did, not relying on 3rd party vendors, they are in a position Apple was in shortly after Steve Jobs came back. They have a solid durable product, not the fastest, not the most configurable, but rock solid with a reputation for lasting forever, and with a high customer satisfaction rating... Apple turned that into the highest profit margins in the industry. There's no reason Pentax couldn't do the same. I'd like to see Pentax go the Apple route. One pro and one consumer APS-c. One pro and one consumer FF. One high end and one entry level Optio, and the contiuation of the Optio WR line. Not the cheapest, but the best overall quality for the buck based on years of use, not just on the purchase price.
01-17-2013, 12:11 PM   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
One pro and one consumer APS-c. One pro and one consumer FF. One high end and one entry level Optio, and the contiuation of the Optio WR line. Not the cheapest, but the best overall quality for the buck based on years of use, not just on the purchase price.
Can we chisel that into the pavement right outside the door of Pentax HQ?
01-17-2013, 12:14 PM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I'd recommend every running back play in the line for a year. Despite playing both ways for every team I played for, my all-star selections were for my play at corner. I just love hitting people more than I enjoy scoring touchdowns... nerd schmerd.
Funny how doing one thing often has unforseen benefits doing something opposite. Like shooting film.

I can't tell your age from the Avatar, but today's level of play has moved one entire division up in skill. I wouldn't even make the JV today.

Last edited by monochrome; 01-23-2013 at 11:35 AM.
01-17-2013, 04:54 PM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mehlsack Quote
So you think being different just NOT to be like anyone else is any highly achievable goal?
I dont think so, it just "hey iam cool, i am a hipser , i dont care what other peoples think "-Meme

I think why many pros might have a problem with the way Pentax is going, because there is no clear way the try to achieve.

Going WR ? Yes, but some DSLR arent WR
The "top notch" limiteds arent WR either.

Going Outdoor? Where is a WR Flash, ? Maybe things like Wireless!!! Tethering

Going Professional? Where are FF, Local Shops, Service Partners ? Renting-Services?


I just want to point out that pentax doesnt make it clear to customers and professionals which path they go.
And even if they say it, we are too stubbord to believe them, anyone recalls that interview where they said "yes we are working on a FF-DSLR which well be top-notch".... No because there is non, but despite that we have some funny people who see the mystical Pentax FF-DSLR around the next corner...

If iam buying new DSLR related things i think iam going to switch to Nikon with 14mm-200mm f2,8 G Lenses (14-24, 24-70, 70-200) next spring or summer.
Not because i absolutly need something like that, but because i can and i want to see what this lineup can deliver.
Will it make me an as good as most of you photographer? No, most likely not, but i can slowly work my way up with better lenses, accessory etc.
I can completely relate! I I think Pentax would do good if they would seriously think about what you wrote!
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