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02-28-2008, 03:46 PM   #16
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As someone who started as a beginner (and probably still am one!!), and having gone from the K100D to the K10D, I would go for the K10D if you are someone who would "get out the book", read, play, and figure out....

02-28-2008, 03:50 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Snowcat Quote
The K10D is lacking some begginners features, like scene modes... It's more comfortable though because it has two wheels...
Maybe you should get K200 actually? It's basically K10 with more beginners features... Should be same great picture quality, but a bit easier to use...
I disagree, I think the K200 will be a camera for people who want pictures but don't want to learn or think, because with all the modes they have the opportunity to set the camera to sports when taking sports shots, and scenic when doing landscapes and don't care about the process. They can reach a minimum level of proficiency and will stay there for ever due to lack of interest in the subject.

For someone truely interested in learning photography, they will be beyond those modes in less than a month. therefore the K10D is good, as Geekybiker said, geared towards those who "want" to be advanced.
02-28-2008, 04:16 PM   #18
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My 8 year old son uses my K100D with no problems at all.
02-28-2008, 04:21 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
I disagree, I think the K200 will be a camera for people who want pictures but don't want to learn or think, because with all the modes they have the opportunity to set the camera to sports when taking sports shots, and scenic when doing landscapes and don't care about the process. They can reach a minimum level of proficiency and will stay there for ever due to lack of interest in the subject.

For someone truely interested in learning photography, they will be beyond those modes in less than a month. therefore the K10D is good, as Geekybiker said, geared towards those who "want" to be advanced.
Exactly. Scene modes aren't "beginner" features, because they're not aimed at people who want to begin.

02-28-2008, 04:42 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Remember that the K200D is almost like the K100D only with the K10D sensor, so the K200D has all the auto modes, limited controls and ?no weather sealing. Only advantage may be the more advanced dust removal mechanism, but you're still going to manually remove that at times, no matter which model you pick....
The K200D does have weather sealing, as well as Expanded Dynamic Range, two features not available in the K100.

The K10D will be harder to master but ultimately better, as you will be forced to understand what you're doing :]

Then you can get a K100 for backup later, it's sooo nice
02-28-2008, 05:02 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Snowcat Quote
The K10D is lacking some begginners features, like scene modes... It's more comfortable though because it has two wheels...
I'm not a snob about this, really I'm not, but I don't regard scene modes as for beginners. I regard them as totally useless, and found on cameras because they sell photos to folks who really should not be buying a digital SLR in the first place. There really are a lot of folks who buy a dslr because THEY are snobs. They think SLRs are somehow inherently better cameras. These people have expensive cars in their driveways and buy fancy wine not because they know about wine but because they believe you get what you pay for. Nonsense. There are really GREAT fixed lens cameras available now, cameras with really good lenses, good sensors, and so on. My wild guess is that about 70% of the people buying digital SLRs would be better served by a fixed-lens compact camera. But I don't complain, because all those buyers help keep the prices down for the rest of us.

The point is, the scene modes are useless. They are not an advantage of the lower-priced cameras, they are a disadvantage of them. They simply waste space on the mode dial.

The K10D has P mode and "green" mode. Green mode is all you need if you simply want to think about composition and don't want to worry at all about exposure. P mode on the K10D is brilliant because it too is fully automatic at first, but you can then convert it to the equivalent of shutter priority or aperture priority by simply turning the front or rear e-dial respectively. This makes P mode a really excellent learning mode. It's safe, because the camera will still give you a nominally correct exposure, but it does allow you to take control.

My recollection is that when I started taking photos in the late 1960s in high school, we were using twin-lens reflexes that belonged to the school. I don't remember when I got my first SLR, perhaps it was while I was in college. But I do remember that my first SLR was much more basic than my K10D. It allowed me to control the shutter and aperture, and that was it. (ISO was and still is a fixed property of the film in the camera.) And that first SLR camera didn't even tell me WHAT settings to use. I used a handheld light meter for years and I remember how cool it was when I got my first camera with a meter IN THE CAMERA. Wow! Still no automatic mode, I'm pretty sure, but at least I could stop carrying a separate meter around--or guessing at exposures (although guessing was good practice in itself).

My take on this is, beginners should be forced to use nothing but full manual mode. Inexpensive SLR cameras should have no modes at all, just M and a built-in meter. That's a proper camera for students, or rather, for people who want to learn. As people learn what the camera can do and more importantly learn why and when to ask the camera to do this rather than that, they can step off M and use a priority mode, or P if they want to. After all it's not the mode that makes the photo!

I myself continue to use M most of the time, but that's because I've done it all my life and when I switch to something else, I feel a bit like I've left the house without a belt: If my pants fit, they don't fall down, but I keep wondering why they don't. But not long ago I read a comment on Ken Rockwell's site, where he laughs at photographers who pride themselves on never using anything but M, because, he said, what really makes the photo is the composition, not the exposure, there's 150 years of experience programmed into P mode, and it's foolish to waste your time thinking about something that the camera can do for you maybe better than you can do it yourself. I felt personally rebuked and I'm trying to loosen up a little. In the process I've rediscovered the K10D's wonderful P mode (and I already shot in TAv mode a lot, which is also not quite full manual).

But I still have no use for kiddie modes and don't think anybody else really does either. If you're afraid of drowning, don't wear water wings. It's more dignified to say out of the water--or jump in and learn to swim.

So: Why buy a K100D rather than a kK10D? Or for that matter, why a K10D rather than the new K20D? One reason only comes to my mind: price. This should be a persuasive reason, since it's also the main reason to buy Pentax in the first place. As I've said before, when I win the Texas lottery, I'm buying a Nikon D3 and about $40K of top-quality lenses and I'm not looking back. And I'm not going to waste a minute thinking that I'm not a good enough photographer for such wonderful tools.

Will
02-28-2008, 05:07 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
Exactly. Scene modes aren't "beginner" features, because they're not aimed at people who want to begin.
Ah, nice way to put it, and much pithier than the rant I just posted.

Perhaps what they should do is release a beginner's camera on the lines I suggest (nothing but M mode on the dial), and then program into the camera so it appears on the LCD a small database of local pros, with names, phone numbers, and areas of specialty, so if you don't really want to take the picture yourself, you can call somebody who knows what they're doing.

Will

P.S. Am I coming off angry? I'm not in a good mood. Usually I don't post when I am in a bad mood. I apologize to anybody if I've inadvertently gotten harsh. I don't like to do that.
02-28-2008, 06:06 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
Ah, nice way to put it, and much pithier than the rant I just posted.

Perhaps what they should do is release a beginner's camera on the lines I suggest (nothing but M mode on the dial), and then program into the camera so it appears on the LCD a small database of local pros, with names, phone numbers, and areas of specialty, so if you don't really want to take the picture yourself, you can call somebody who knows what they're doing.

Will

P.S. Am I coming off angry? I'm not in a good mood. Usually I don't post when I am in a bad mood. I apologize to anybody if I've inadvertently gotten harsh. I don't like to do that.
Will, you are getting a little testy but imagine how the pros on the database will get with all the really stupid questions. I almost wrote scene modes are for idiots, then took it out. Oh S&$#, now I have gone and done it

02-28-2008, 08:10 PM   #24
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The controls on the K10D are no more complicated then the controls on the K100D. But the K10D offers MORE control. Additionally, the K10D has a number of "on body" controls that are buried in the K100D's menus.

The K100D is an awsome camera for the price (as is the K10D). It has all the tools I think a person needs to learn photography. Spotmeter, mirror lock-up, Depth of field etc. I think it is the best beginers camera sold today.

But its when you start thinking, "I wish there was a way that I could choose the aperture/shutter ratio in program mode" that you will want to step up to the K10D.

With the way the price has dropped on the K10D, its a hard bargen to pass up on right now.

And the only "Scene Mode" that I miss from my K100D is the pet mode. (seriously, what is a pet mode?)

Eric.
02-28-2008, 09:54 PM   #25
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Well I bought my DL camera last May. I played around with it in auto mode for about two weeks then I went to M mode and I haven't went back. With that being said. Since May I bought the DL, K100D and I just got my K10D today. I used the DL till about Sept or Oct. (I felt like I outgrew it) then I got the K100D and used it till today (now I feel like I have outgrown it and wanted more megapixels). I wish back in May I had just put down the money for the K10D. But oh well I have two great backup cameras.

Jim
02-28-2008, 10:37 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
I'm not a snob about this, really I'm not, but I don't regard scene modes as for beginners. I regard them as totally useless, and found on cameras because they sell photos to folks who really should not be buying a digital SLR in the first place. There really are a lot of folks who buy a dslr because THEY are snobs. They think SLRs are somehow inherently better cameras. These people have expensive cars in their driveways and buy fancy wine not because they know about wine but because they believe you get what you pay for. Nonsense. There are really GREAT fixed lens cameras available now, cameras with really good lenses, good sensors, and so on. My wild guess is that about 70% of the people buying digital SLRs would be better served by a fixed-lens compact camera. But I don't complain, because all those buyers help keep the prices down for the rest of us.

The point is, the scene modes are useless. They are not an advantage of the lower-priced cameras, they are a disadvantage of them. They simply waste space on the mode dial.

The K10D has P mode and "green" mode. Green mode is all you need if you simply want to think about composition and don't want to worry at all about exposure. P mode on the K10D is brilliant because it too is fully automatic at first, but you can then convert it to the equivalent of shutter priority or aperture priority by simply turning the front or rear e-dial respectively. This makes P mode a really excellent learning mode. It's safe, because the camera will still give you a nominally correct exposure, but it does allow you to take control.

My recollection is that when I started taking photos in the late 1960s in high school, we were using twin-lens reflexes that belonged to the school. I don't remember when I got my first SLR, perhaps it was while I was in college. But I do remember that my first SLR was much more basic than my K10D. It allowed me to control the shutter and aperture, and that was it. (ISO was and still is a fixed property of the film in the camera.) And that first SLR camera didn't even tell me WHAT settings to use. I used a handheld light meter for years and I remember how cool it was when I got my first camera with a meter IN THE CAMERA. Wow! Still no automatic mode, I'm pretty sure, but at least I could stop carrying a separate meter around--or guessing at exposures (although guessing was good practice in itself).
Oh c' mon. Green mode is totally useless, and found on cameras because they sell photos to folks who really should not be buying a digital SLR in the first place. It simply wastes space on the body. Real photographers use a separate light meter or just guess the exposure. Do you have any real life experience with what you just said? Are you sure they don't know wine better than you do and buy "fancy" wine because it tastes better? Basically you're saying that they don't have the right to own an SLR, only you. You're the one. You bought a DSLR because your photography was way beyond any P&S and you needed a suitable camera for your incredible work, right? Much better than theirs.

Scene modes can be excellent learning tools. You can see what the camera is doing with aperture and shutter speed to match your objectives, and learn from that. 150 years of experience are programmed in the scene modes, more than in P which is just simple metering.

I guess that if the running man "Sports" mode was called "High Shutter Speed Priority" you wouldn't mind would ya? Or the night portrait called "Slow-sync Flash"? Or the landscape "DOF Priority"? Because that's all the scene modes do. They're harmless, and very useful if you understand what they mean. I find Sports mode very useful, it's just a flexible Tv. You shouldn't be afraid of it. Night mode is also very useful, much faster than using Tv for slow sync and having to choose a fixed shutter speed. You're still in control of the settings and the results if you know what you're doing.

I feel some serious trauma/envy (don't have the word in English) coming through your comments. Making this kind of harmful assumptions about people is not very polite, and has a name: prejudice. Follow my line: you're the rich and prosperous owner of a million dollar business. US$ 2000 is your week's grocery. Why in hell's sake would you buy a P&S if you can buy a D3 and have much more fun with it, while getting stellar image quality? In my book being rich doesn't equal being stupid, most often the opposite.

And that aside, there is no P&S that can do thin DOF or clean high ISOs. Maybe all these dumb stupid snobs somehow know found out about this? Chill out and rethink your values a little bit.

QuoteQuote:
But not long ago I read a comment on Ken Rockwell's site, where he laughs at photographers who pride themselves on never using anything but M, because, he said, what really makes the photo is the composition, not the exposure, there's 150 years of experience programmed into P mode, and it's foolish to waste your time thinking about something that the camera can do for you maybe better than you can do it yourself.
First you say that scene modes are for idiots and now this? Do you really think exposure doesn't play a part in the image? Depth of field, lighting, atmosphere? That can be true for landscapes, and only that.
02-28-2008, 11:01 PM   #27
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Ricardo,

Good point about the scene modes being a learning tool. I had't thought of that.
02-29-2008, 02:41 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by ricardobeat Quote

I feel some serious trauma/envy (don't have the word in English) coming through your comments. Making this kind of harmful assumptions about people is not very polite, and has a name: prejudice. Follow my line: you're the rich and prosperous owner of a million dollar business. US$ 2000 is your week's grocery. Why in hell's sake would you buy a P&S if you can buy a D3 and have much more fun with it, while getting stellar image quality? In my book being rich doesn't equal being stupid, most often the opposite.

.

I have just returned from a holiday (vacation) in Egypt (many hundreds of shots with my K10D, fantastic fun).

I was lucky enough to be in the Sahara desert at the time of the lunar eclipse. What a sky, I have never seen the like of.

Amongst the party was a very attractive obviously rich young lady with a very expensive looking Canon and huge glass. Not sure what - didn't like to stare too hard for obvious reasons.

The point is she was taking many many pictures of this amazing eclipsing moon ....... using flash !!

Say no more.
02-29-2008, 06:14 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by KungPOW Quote
Ricardo,

Good point about the scene modes being a learning tool. I had't thought of that.
Are they really?

You only learn from them if you go back afterwords, analyze the EXIF data from each shot, and start making an analytical analysis of how the camera performed in each mode.

That process will take MUCH longer than reading a book on the principles of photography and understanding what you want to do, as opposed to picking apart what the camera did.

As I said earlier, the scene modes really are intended to get a completely inexperienced uneducated (in photography) user to a minimum level of proficiency. For many people, that may be all they want, and I can understand the camera makers going out to try and capture them, but with the exception of noise, they would really be better off with a good P&S.

I don't say this to be critical, I travel for work, and my SLR stays at home when I do. I have a 5MP P&S with a 10:1 zoom, and a .45X wide angle attachment to give me a range of 17-380mm (35mm equivelent) plus macro lenses. It all fits in my briefcase and has done 5000 shots in 3 years, many of them technical.

if you are looking to only print 4x6 inch it does just fine, and it has full manual modes apature, shutter and ISO control plus the scene modes people want.

Getting back to the OP. He wants to learn the theory behind photography, and as many have noted, with that approach the scene modes will last him about 2 weeks before he switches to manual, so why not go for the K10D
02-29-2008, 07:18 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by ricardobeat Quote
Scene modes can be excellent learning tools. You can see what the camera is doing with aperture and shutter speed to match your objectives, and learn from that. 150 years of experience are programmed in the scene modes, more than in P which is just simple metering.
Scene modes could be learning tools, but I've never seen a camera that implements them that way. They change all sorts of things (including tone curves, sharpening, contrast, and saturation, maybe the metering, etc., etc.) and there's no way -- let alone a good way to learn from -- to find out what, exactly, they do.

For example, can you tell me what the landscape and portrait modes on the K100D do?

EDIT: I just noticed in the other thread where you suggest using the buried-in-the-menu SCN modes for learning. So let me up the ante: what does the pets mode do?

Last edited by mattdm; 02-29-2008 at 07:23 AM.
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