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05-25-2013, 10:30 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
At ISO 8000 you surely won't see a difference. GordonBGood (posting at DPRreview) once wrote that he expects ISO 640 to be the threshold.
Maybe not, but my rationale was that if there was a difference, at that point it would be exaggerated (kind of like the difference a few degrees make - initially it's almost indiscernible, but because incredibly apparent the further away from the origin you get) and obvious. I don't think the bits have anything to do with noise. Looking at DXO's noise scores for the K-5 IIs and the K-30 (1208 and 1129, respectively), confirms what I consider a negligible difference in noise between the two.

-Heie

05-25-2013, 10:52 AM   #17
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@Heie - That's another great test. If there is any difference, it's extremely marginal, at most. Do you find that you can visibly pull more detail out of the shadows from of the 14-bit files? I've seen a link here that shows as much; just wondering if you've experienced it.
05-25-2013, 06:03 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Heie Quote
Maybe not, but my rationale was that if there was a difference, at that point it would be exaggerated...
In your example there is a lot of shot noise (noise caused by a low number of photons) and at high ISO settings one also has increased read out noise. With such noise sources in place, there isn't enough information that needs to be captured with a high number of bits.

Only if the noise level is low and the dynamic range is high, then 14bit can make a difference.

QuoteOriginally posted by Heie Quote
I don't think the bits have anything to do with noise.
Did you follow the link I provided in my previous post?

The 14bit advantage is certainly rather small, but if someone asks whether there is a difference, the answer got to be "yes". It is up to the OP to decide whether the difference is relevant to them.
05-25-2013, 08:08 PM   #19
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I really have to wonder why Pentax elected to go with a 12-bit architecture when cameras like the d5100 use 14, like its bigger brother, the d7000. Then again, I wonder if the outcome differential is only really visible to photography geeks and essentially unnoticeable to the rest of the world.

05-26-2013, 12:41 AM - 1 Like   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Spodeworld Quote
@Heie - That's another great test. If there is any difference, it's extremely marginal, at most. Do you find that you can visibly pull more detail out of the shadows from of the 14-bit files? I've seen a link here that shows as much; just wondering if you've experienced it.
I'm sure there is a difference, however the K-30 continues to surprise the hell out of me with what I could pull out of the shadows. I'm sure that if I took two pictures and underexposed them by 5 stops and tried to salvage them, the K-5 (II/IIs as well) would definitely cleaner. I haven't tested it personally (nor can I at the moment), but I wouldn't expect the K-30 to be as salvagable. For real world purposes, I doubt a real difference would be seen unless you really know what you are doing, for me personally, I've had a lot of success with the K-30 as low as three stops pulled out of the shadows.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
In your example there is a lot of shot noise (noise caused by a low number of photons) and at high ISO settings one also has increased read out noise. With such noise sources in place, there isn't enough information that needs to be captured with a high number of bits.
Only if the noise level is low and the dynamic range is high, then 14bit can make a difference. Originally posted by Heie I don't think the bits have anything to do with noise. Did you follow the link I provided in my previous post?
The 14bit advantage is certainly rather small, but if someone asks whether there is a difference, the answer got to be "yes". It is up to the OP to decide whether the difference is relevant to them.
Hey Class A,

I didn't mean that there isn't a difference between 12 and 14 bits. I was solely stating the noise suppression, which was the OP's question. That was why I went to the bokeh for the noise crop comparisons because it was 100% noise - no details at all.

I agree completely that the 14 bit is superior to the 12 bit (any statement to the contrary is just ludicrous), but when I said "negligible," I was referring to the minimal difference I have noticed (solely in noise suppression), and then combined with my assumption that the OP would not have the technical ability to capture and thus capitalize on those differences.

Sorry if I wasn't clear - I was solely attending to the OP's question about noise levels between the two, nothing else.

And no, I did not check out that link, but I did this time, and while it was a very clear comparison, it is not serving the purpose of the OP's question. In the LL link, he is taking a 6-stop underexposed shot and trying to recover what he can out of it at different bit levels at ISO 80. While that will bring about noise, it doesn't address the "if exposure is accurately metered and all other parameters are equal, does the 14-bit offer lower noise than the 12-bit?" It shows instead the DR question of 14-bit vs 12. Unrelated to the OP's question, I would nonetheless still contend that the OP is not capable of capitalizing on that minor difference (no offense OP ). Looking at those two images, I was unable to really see a difference between the 14/13/12-bit images. Also, the 200% crop isn't realistic: there's pixel peeping, and then there's ridiculous

-Heie
05-30-2013, 12:31 PM   #21
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Above ISO1600 the camera preforms noise reduction, even with RAW so above that value test will become far less saying because you're also looking at the noise reduction preformance.
06-03-2013, 01:36 PM   #22
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I have the K-30. I find I'm able to pull sufficient information out of the dark areas using the "limited" 12-bit raw. If the shot is pitch black I'll probably just throw it away. The only benefit for 14-bit I could see is taking long exposure pictures of the night sky. There is no benefit in highlight preservation which would be my only plus for 14-bit with high contrast scenes(I have a set of hitech nd grads anyway). The file sizes are also a bit smaller with 12-bit raw.
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