Pentax K5 flash sync speed

old4570 · 09-14-2013, 06:19 PM

I think its best to just deal with the limitation of 1/180 , hopefully Pentax will see this as an actual issue , and maybe a future firmware "FIX" ?

Or start looking at other Brands ...

**Lowell Goudge** · 09-14-2013, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by old4570

I think its best to just deal with the limitation of 1/180 , hopefully Pentax will see this as an actual issue , and maybe a future firmware "FIX" ?

Or start looking at other Brands ...

You mean that you want them to allow you to take shots with part of the image missing?

Or do you mean that you would switch brands just to get an additional 1/2 stop of flash sync?

Either way it makes no sense. This has been argues over and over again and in the end it boils down to people wanting hat canikon offer just because they think 1/2 stop is "inferior"

old4570 · 09-15-2013, 05:15 PM

Hmmm , on youtube they talk about flash sync speeds of up to 1/6000 , and up to 1/500 (on camera ?)

I have to look into this some more , + Im not about to trade away my K5 , but this may affect what camera I buy after this ....

If its Richo's plan to fall behind other camera manufacturers , who am I to argue ? But from what I understand , in the DSLR race , every little bit helps ..

SO if Pentax were to say plan on building a new DSLR to keep up with the jones'es or pass them bye , then 24MP and a flash sync speed of 1/500 or better would be a nice sweetener .. ( just saying )

amoringello · 09-15-2013, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by Lowell Goudge

You mean that you want them to allow you to take shots with part of the image missing?

Or do you mean that you would switch brands just to get an additional 1/2 stop of flash sync?

Either way it makes no sense. This has been argues over and over again and in the end it boils down to people wanting hat canikon offer just because they think 1/2 stop is "inferior"

Look into "Hyper Sync" -- allowing flash above sync speed, which can result in lower exposure for part of the frame. Not usually a total loss when proper conditions are met.
Of course lots of people also argue why it would be useless. I guess if you don't get it, so be it. But there are lots of reasons for doing so and a lot of people who see the benefit.

elliott · 09-15-2013, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by old4570

Hmmm , on youtube they talk about flash sync speeds of up to 1/6000 , and up to 1/500 (on camera ?)

I have to look into this some more , + Im not about to trade away my K5 , but this may affect what camera I buy after this ....

If its Richo's plan to fall behind other camera manufacturers , who am I to argue ? But from what I understand , in the DSLR race , every little bit helps ..

SO if Pentax were to say plan on building a new DSLR to keep up with the jones'es or pass them bye , then 24MP and a flash sync speed of 1/500 or better would be a nice sweetener .. ( just saying )

You won't find anything faster than 1/250 today in a DSLR, even in the highest end models. Years ago there was a hybrid shutter design used on the CCD sensor in the Nikon D70, the flash sync was rated at 1/500 and could be pushed beyond that using a manual flash. I don't believe it is possible to do the same kind of shutter on a CMOS sensor.

old4570 · 09-15-2013, 08:13 PM

Yeah = The D70 ...

Hmm , I really dont see why its so hard ? To have faster sync speed ...
I mean the shutter and flash would not really need to be synced at all at faster speeds ( well - what I mean is - synced any more than it is )
I mean light travels @ light speed
And as long as the flash fires at a point that lights up the area in front of the lens , then who cares if the shutter speed is faster , as long as the shutter activates aprox at the time that is optimal to take advantage of the flash ...
And yes the faster the flash the less effect the flash has , but that would be up to the photographer ...
So how hard would it be for the manufacturer ?
So why not just incorporate a manual over ride for the shutter and flash ???? I dont see it being a very hard thing to do ...
So no matter the shutter speed , the flash fires ...
And if the shutter is catching the flash at the wrong time , a manual input could be incorporated to fire the flash earlier or latter ...
Bit like AV + - or back focus and forward focus adjustment in the K20D to K5 models for lens adjustment ..

I really dont see it being such a hard ask - Especially if put into the Custom functions menu ....

elliott · 09-15-2013, 08:29 PM

Watch this, notice even at 1/1000s the sensor is never fully exposed.

You Tube

If the flash pulses at 1/4000, you'll only get about 1/4 of a frame and it might not be predictable exactly which part you get. This is why HSS works the way it does, it pulses the flash for a very long time, relatively speaking, so it covers the entire frame at the cost of the maximum light output.

What the D70 was doing was opening the shutter with the sensor off, turning the sensor on for whatever the shutter speed was, then turning it off. So the entire sensor would be exposed to the light from the flash because the shutter was entirely out of the way, yet the exposure would be right because of the electronic shutter. You can still get electronic shutters in compact cameras that have hotshoes, so that would be an option.

old4570 · 09-15-2013, 08:53 PM

Wow , OK ... That was interesting ... So that would mean that @ 1/500 only half the sensor would be exposed , and the max speed would be 1/250 as the entire sensor would be exposed ....

So for faster shutter speed a strobing flash would be needed to maintain the light output while the shutter moves across the sensor ...

Ok that makes sense now ....

**Digitalis** · 09-15-2013, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by old4570

think its best to just deal with the limitation of 1/180 , hopefully Pentax will see this as an actual issue , and maybe a future firmware "FIX" ?

With Pentax DLSR cameras the 1/180th shutter flash sync speed is purely a hardware limitation - it isn't something that a firmware release can "fix".

Originally posted by elliott

You won't find anything faster than 1/250 today in a DSLR, even in the highest end models.

I can sync quite happily with my Nikon D4 at 1/320th and my Leica S2 can sync at 1/500th.

elliott · 09-16-2013, 07:16 AM

Originally posted by Digitalis

I can sync quite happily with my Nikon D4 at 1/320th and my Leica S2 can sync at 1/500th.

Nikon officially says 1/250 and Leica is 1/125 on the focal plane shutter. The Leica can only go faster with the leaf shutter lenses, which the Pentax 645D can as well, I was only referring to focal plane sync since you aren't going to ever get leaf shutters in K, F, EF or other common DSLR mounts.

**Lowell Goudge** · 09-16-2013, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by Digitalis

With Pentax DLSR cameras the 1/180th shutter flash sync speed is purely a hardware limitation - it isn't something that a firmware release can "fix".

I can sync quite happily with my Nikon D4 at 1/320th and my Leica S2 can sync at 1/500th.

No it is a whole system issue. If you go back a few years, you will find complaints about darkening at the bottom of the frame at 1/180 and full flash power out of the AF 540FGZ. The flash duration was longer than the full open time of the shutter. We also need a flash with higher intensity and shorter duration, but that puts more stress (reduced life ) on the flash tube, then you need to increase the speed of the shutter blades them selves, which is used on every shot increasing stresses and reducing shutter life if not compensated for some where in the design, etc, etc, etc........

**Digitalis** · 09-16-2013, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by Lowell Goudge

If you go back a few years, you will find complaints about darkening at the bottom of the frame at 1/180 and full flash power out of the AF 540FGZ. The flash duration was longer than the full open time of the shutter. We also need a flash with higher intensity and shorter duration, but that puts more stress (reduced life ) on the flash tube

You're right of course, however in order to be competetive with other manufacturers the sync speed has to be increased to meet consumers expectations - my professional expectations have already been met. I really don't have a problem with the 1/180th sync speed...but then again I very rarely use my Pentax DSLRs for commercial work. For commercial work I use either Canon or Nikon 35mm cameras or medium/large format - because it is what my clients expect.

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09-14-2013, 06:19 PM	#16
old4570 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 2,551 Original Poster	I think its best to just deal with the limitation of 1/180 , hopefully Pentax will see this as an actual issue , and maybe a future firmware "FIX" ? Or start looking at other Brands ...

09-14-2013, 11:21 PM	#17
Lowell Goudge Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,891	Originally posted by old4570 I think its best to just deal with the limitation of 1/180 , hopefully Pentax will see this as an actual issue , and maybe a future firmware "FIX" ? Or start looking at other Brands ... You mean that you want them to allow you to take shots with part of the image missing? Or do you mean that you would switch brands just to get an additional 1/2 stop of flash sync? Either way it makes no sense. This has been argues over and over again and in the end it boils down to people wanting hat canikon offer just because they think 1/2 stop is "inferior"

09-15-2013, 05:15 PM	#18
old4570 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 2,551 Original Poster	Hmmm , on youtube they talk about flash sync speeds of up to 1/6000 , and up to 1/500 (on camera ?) I have to look into this some more , + Im not about to trade away my K5 , but this may affect what camera I buy after this .... If its Richo's plan to fall behind other camera manufacturers , who am I to argue ? But from what I understand , in the DSLR race , every little bit helps .. SO if Pentax were to say plan on building a new DSLR to keep up with the jones'es or pass them bye , then 24MP and a flash sync speed of 1/500 or better would be a nice sweetener .. ( just saying )

09-15-2013, 06:44 PM	#19
amoringello Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Virginia, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,562	Originally posted by Lowell Goudge You mean that you want them to allow you to take shots with part of the image missing? Or do you mean that you would switch brands just to get an additional 1/2 stop of flash sync? Either way it makes no sense. This has been argues over and over again and in the end it boils down to people wanting hat canikon offer just because they think 1/2 stop is "inferior" Look into "Hyper Sync" -- allowing flash above sync speed, which can result in lower exposure for part of the frame. Not usually a total loss when proper conditions are met. Of course lots of people also argue why it would be useless. I guess if you don't get it, so be it. But there are lots of reasons for doing so and a lot of people who see the benefit.

09-15-2013, 07:58 PM	#20
elliott Inactive Account Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: North Carolina Photos: Albums Posts: 1,720	Originally posted by old4570 Hmmm , on youtube they talk about flash sync speeds of up to 1/6000 , and up to 1/500 (on camera ?) I have to look into this some more , + Im not about to trade away my K5 , but this may affect what camera I buy after this .... If its Richo's plan to fall behind other camera manufacturers , who am I to argue ? But from what I understand , in the DSLR race , every little bit helps .. SO if Pentax were to say plan on building a new DSLR to keep up with the jones'es or pass them bye , then 24MP and a flash sync speed of 1/500 or better would be a nice sweetener .. ( just saying ) You won't find anything faster than 1/250 today in a DSLR, even in the highest end models. Years ago there was a hybrid shutter design used on the CCD sensor in the Nikon D70, the flash sync was rated at 1/500 and could be pushed beyond that using a manual flash. I don't believe it is possible to do the same kind of shutter on a CMOS sensor.

09-15-2013, 08:13 PM	#21
old4570 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 2,551 Original Poster	Yeah = The D70 ... Hmm , I really dont see why its so hard ? To have faster sync speed ... I mean the shutter and flash would not really need to be synced at all at faster speeds ( well - what I mean is - synced any more than it is ) I mean light travels @ light speed And as long as the flash fires at a point that lights up the area in front of the lens , then who cares if the shutter speed is faster , as long as the shutter activates aprox at the time that is optimal to take advantage of the flash ... And yes the faster the flash the less effect the flash has , but that would be up to the photographer ... So how hard would it be for the manufacturer ? So why not just incorporate a manual over ride for the shutter and flash ???? I dont see it being a very hard thing to do ... So no matter the shutter speed , the flash fires ... And if the shutter is catching the flash at the wrong time , a manual input could be incorporated to fire the flash earlier or latter ... Bit like AV + - or back focus and forward focus adjustment in the K20D to K5 models for lens adjustment .. I really dont see it being such a hard ask - Especially if put into the Custom functions menu ....

09-15-2013, 08:53 PM	#23
old4570 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 2,551 Original Poster	Wow , OK ... That was interesting ... So that would mean that @ 1/500 only half the sensor would be exposed , and the max speed would be 1/250 as the entire sensor would be exposed .... So for faster shutter speed a strobing flash would be needed to maintain the light output while the shutter moves across the sensor ... Ok that makes sense now ....

09-15-2013, 11:36 PM	#24
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by old4570 think its best to just deal with the limitation of 1/180 , hopefully Pentax will see this as an actual issue , and maybe a future firmware "FIX" ? With Pentax DLSR cameras the 1/180th shutter flash sync speed is purely a hardware limitation - it isn't something that a firmware release can "fix". Originally posted by elliott You won't find anything faster than 1/250 today in a DSLR, even in the highest end models. I can sync quite happily with my Nikon D4 at 1/320th and my Leica S2 can sync at 1/500th.

09-16-2013, 07:16 AM	#25
elliott Inactive Account Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: North Carolina Photos: Albums Posts: 1,720	Originally posted by Digitalis I can sync quite happily with my Nikon D4 at 1/320th and my Leica S2 can sync at 1/500th. Nikon officially says 1/250 and Leica is 1/125 on the focal plane shutter. The Leica can only go faster with the leaf shutter lenses, which the Pentax 645D can as well, I was only referring to focal plane sync since you aren't going to ever get leaf shutters in K, F, EF or other common DSLR mounts.

09-16-2013, 11:40 AM	#26
Lowell Goudge Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,891	Originally posted by Digitalis With Pentax DLSR cameras the 1/180th shutter flash sync speed is purely a hardware limitation - it isn't something that a firmware release can "fix". I can sync quite happily with my Nikon D4 at 1/320th and my Leica S2 can sync at 1/500th. No it is a whole system issue. If you go back a few years, you will find complaints about darkening at the bottom of the frame at 1/180 and full flash power out of the AF 540FGZ. The flash duration was longer than the full open time of the shutter. We also need a flash with higher intensity and shorter duration, but that puts more stress (reduced life ) on the flash tube, then you need to increase the speed of the shutter blades them selves, which is used on every shot increasing stresses and reducing shutter life if not compensated for some where in the design, etc, etc, etc........

09-16-2013, 05:20 PM	#27
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by Lowell Goudge If you go back a few years, you will find complaints about darkening at the bottom of the frame at 1/180 and full flash power out of the AF 540FGZ. The flash duration was longer than the full open time of the shutter. We also need a flash with higher intensity and shorter duration, but that puts more stress (reduced life ) on the flash tube You're right of course, however in order to be competetive with other manufacturers the sync speed has to be increased to meet consumers expectations - my professional expectations have already been met. I really don't have a problem with the 1/180th sync speed...but then again I very rarely use my Pentax DSLRs for commercial work. For commercial work I use either Canon or Nikon 35mm cameras or medium/large format - because it is what my clients expect.