Off camera flash

**tr1ckyn1ck** · 12-20-2013, 10:16 AM

Hi

I have a K5 and a 360 flash. This year to take pictures of my kids at Christmas, I would like to set up the flash off camera pointed at the ceiling and trigger it with a radio trigger. I plan to shoot in manual on the camera - the room is quite small, so I don't think the exposure will change much shot to shot.

Could someone please recommend what mode the flash should be set in and how I should go about setting up exposure initially? I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around sync speeds, so I am mostly confused what to do with the shutter speed.

Thanks

**Canada_Rockies** · 12-20-2013, 10:30 AM

Why not use the on board flash as a trigger and fill flash? it will add that little sparkle of highlight to the eyes. The 360 can be optically triggered "wirelessly" without using P-TTL I think.

**tr1ckyn1ck** · 12-20-2013, 10:36 AM

Thanks for the reply.

I actually tried optically triggering it last year, but I found the triggering was inconsistent, depending on where I was pointing the camera. Maybe I need to revisit that, but in my mind, I thought RF triggering would be more straightforward.

elliott · 12-20-2013, 10:52 AM

For reliability RF triggering is definitely the way to go, but that will limit you to full manual flash. Flash power level is going to depend on the height of the ceiling and the aperture and ISO you want to use.

You can use this method for determining your flash power, or you could take a wild guess and check the results:
Strobist: Guide Number: Your Free Flash Meter

Shutter speed is mostly irrelevant for the flash exposure, as long as it is 1/180s or faster the flash will look the same. What you'll be using the shutter speed for is to control the ambient light sources, just as you would if you aren't using flash.

**Canada_Rockies** · 12-20-2013, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by elliott

For reliability RF triggering is definitely the way to go, but that will limit you to full manual flash. Flash power level is going to depend on the height of the ceiling and the aperture and ISO you want to use.

You can use this method for determining your flash power, or you could take a wild guess and check the results:
Strobist: Guide Number: Your Free Flash Meter

Shutter speed is mostly irrelevant for the flash exposure, as long as it is 1/180s or faster the flash will look the same. What you'll be using the shutter speed for is to control the ambient light sources, just as you would if you aren't using flash.

I think you have a typo there. Should be Slower than 1/180 to allow both shutter curtains to be open at the same time.

devorama · 12-20-2013, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by tr1ckyn1ck

Hi

I have a K5 and a 360 flash. This year to take pictures of my kids at Christmas, I would like to set up the flash off camera pointed at the ceiling and trigger it with a radio trigger. I plan to shoot in manual on the camera - the room is quite small, so I don't think the exposure will change much shot to shot.

Could someone please recommend what mode the flash should be set in and how I should go about setting up exposure initially? I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around sync speeds, so I am mostly confused what to do with the shutter speed.

Thanks

I highly recommend shooting in Manual mode for flash photography. There are too many variables that are out of your control otherwise. Try setting the flash manually to full or half power. The more light, the better. But shooting at half power means you can re-cycle the flash faster in case you need to take a few shots in quick succession. Depending on your lens, you might want to shoot something like F/2.8 or F/4. Shutter speed with the radio trigger should be 1/125sec or slower. Technically it can do 1/180 sec, but I've had problems with that in the past where part of the image will be darker because of mis-timing. If you shoot 1/125 sec, the majority of your exposure will come from the flash. If you shoot at a slower shutter speed, aka "drag shutter", you can get more of the exposure to come from the ambient light. So it depends on how you want to balance it. Finally, set your ISO so the exposure looks appropriate. Flash exposure is more complex than available light because now you have a fourth variable. In addition to ISO, shutter speed, and aperture, you also have flash power. But keep in mind that the way you affect exposure are different with flash photography.

Flash power: more flash power gives more exposure to only what is in range of the flash. Far away things are still exposed as if not hit by flash
Shutter speed: faster or slower shutter will only affect the part of the exposure that comes from the ambient light. The contribution from the flash is essentially unaffected.
Aperture: behaves as normal
ISO: behaves as normal

Hope this helps!

**tr1ckyn1ck** · 12-20-2013, 11:04 AM

Okay. So set the flash power for the aperture and ISO I want, then use the shutter speed to control the ambient exposure (but stay below 1/180). I'll try this.

elliott · 12-20-2013, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by Canada_Rockies

I think you have a typo there. Should be Slower than 1/180 to allow both shutter curtains to be open at the same time.

Yes I do, I blame the cough syrup.

devorama · 12-20-2013, 11:17 AM

That's the beauty of digital photography. Try a bunch of stuff and experiment. The feedback is cheap and immediate. Just make sure to do your experimenting in advance of your actual shoot. You want to have it all worked out before you have live subjects.

Joojoo2010 · 12-20-2013, 11:22 AM

Yes radiotrigger works always, iget always tired with flash slave modes cos sometimes flash will trigger them sometimes not.

About ur question, i use setup like ur planning a lot with kids. I like use light stand so i can get my flash more near roof (must be white roof ofcource) and almoust what ever position in room i want. I use about 85mm in flash head, i just like tele more than wide cos i not like light going everywhere too much...it goes anyway enough. Its matter of taste u just try what u like in ur pics. Corners in room are even better to shoot flash but then must have totally white walls also to use walls too for bouncing.

I use camera mode M always to have all control. Speed depends mostly if i want to balance flash with avAilable light or use only flash to light pics. If only flash then use 1/180s. Normally i balance available light about 2 av underexposure but that depend also little, anyway i do not use times slower than 1/20s with kids and many times that is too slow also but it depends how much they move.

Aperture depends totally what kind of pic u want, between f1.4-f16. Then adjust iso and flash power. I normally start adjust flash from value 1/4. If u want to balance ur flash with room lighs u will needuse color gels with ur flash.

Edit. I hope that was clearrly put cos i did get disturbed while writing this...

**tr1ckyn1ck** · 12-20-2013, 01:02 PM

Thanks for all the advice. I have been playing around with this using the optical triggering (because I haven't picked up radio triggers yet) and it looks good. I just need to work with flash placement a bit.

One final question: if the scene is mostly lit by the flash, then the shutter speed will have no effect on motion blurring (i.e., I can freeze kids' movement even at 1/125 or slower)? Then I am assuming motion blur creeps in as the ambient lighting increases? I usually have to shoot my kids at 1/500 to freeze things enough.

**Canada_Rockies** · 12-20-2013, 02:03 PM

The flash duration is very short. So, yes.

12-20-2013, 10:16 AM	#1
tr1ckyn1ck Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: ON Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 60	Off camera flash Hi I have a K5 and a 360 flash. This year to take pictures of my kids at Christmas, I would like to set up the flash off camera pointed at the ceiling and trigger it with a radio trigger. I plan to shoot in manual on the camera - the room is quite small, so I don't think the exposure will change much shot to shot. Could someone please recommend what mode the flash should be set in and how I should go about setting up exposure initially? I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around sync speeds, so I am mostly confused what to do with the shutter speed. Thanks

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12-20-2013, 10:30 AM	#2
Canada_Rockies Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sparwood, BC, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,385	Why not use the on board flash as a trigger and fill flash? it will add that little sparkle of highlight to the eyes. The 360 can be optically triggered "wirelessly" without using P-TTL I think.

12-20-2013, 10:36 AM	#3
tr1ckyn1ck Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: ON Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 60 Original Poster	Thanks for the reply. I actually tried optically triggering it last year, but I found the triggering was inconsistent, depending on where I was pointing the camera. Maybe I need to revisit that, but in my mind, I thought RF triggering would be more straightforward.

12-20-2013, 10:52 AM	#4
elliott Inactive Account Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: North Carolina Photos: Albums Posts: 1,720	For reliability RF triggering is definitely the way to go, but that will limit you to full manual flash. Flash power level is going to depend on the height of the ceiling and the aperture and ISO you want to use. You can use this method for determining your flash power, or you could take a wild guess and check the results: Strobist: Guide Number: Your Free Flash Meter Shutter speed is mostly irrelevant for the flash exposure, as long as it is 1/180s or faster the flash will look the same. What you'll be using the shutter speed for is to control the ambient light sources, just as you would if you aren't using flash.

12-20-2013, 10:57 AM	#5
Canada_Rockies Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sparwood, BC, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,385	Originally posted by elliott For reliability RF triggering is definitely the way to go, but that will limit you to full manual flash. Flash power level is going to depend on the height of the ceiling and the aperture and ISO you want to use. You can use this method for determining your flash power, or you could take a wild guess and check the results: Strobist: Guide Number: Your Free Flash Meter Shutter speed is mostly irrelevant for the flash exposure, as long as it is 1/180s or faster the flash will look the same. What you'll be using the shutter speed for is to control the ambient light sources, just as you would if you aren't using flash. I think you have a typo there. Should be Slower than 1/180 to allow both shutter curtains to be open at the same time.

12-20-2013, 11:02 AM	#6
devorama Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Chicago, IL Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 638	Originally posted by tr1ckyn1ck Hi I have a K5 and a 360 flash. This year to take pictures of my kids at Christmas, I would like to set up the flash off camera pointed at the ceiling and trigger it with a radio trigger. I plan to shoot in manual on the camera - the room is quite small, so I don't think the exposure will change much shot to shot. Could someone please recommend what mode the flash should be set in and how I should go about setting up exposure initially? I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around sync speeds, so I am mostly confused what to do with the shutter speed. Thanks I highly recommend shooting in Manual mode for flash photography. There are too many variables that are out of your control otherwise. Try setting the flash manually to full or half power. The more light, the better. But shooting at half power means you can re-cycle the flash faster in case you need to take a few shots in quick succession. Depending on your lens, you might want to shoot something like F/2.8 or F/4. Shutter speed with the radio trigger should be 1/125sec or slower. Technically it can do 1/180 sec, but I've had problems with that in the past where part of the image will be darker because of mis-timing. If you shoot 1/125 sec, the majority of your exposure will come from the flash. If you shoot at a slower shutter speed, aka "drag shutter", you can get more of the exposure to come from the ambient light. So it depends on how you want to balance it. Finally, set your ISO so the exposure looks appropriate. Flash exposure is more complex than available light because now you have a fourth variable. In addition to ISO, shutter speed, and aperture, you also have flash power. But keep in mind that the way you affect exposure are different with flash photography. Flash power: more flash power gives more exposure to only what is in range of the flash. Far away things are still exposed as if not hit by flash Shutter speed: faster or slower shutter will only affect the part of the exposure that comes from the ambient light. The contribution from the flash is essentially unaffected. Aperture: behaves as normal ISO: behaves as normal Hope this helps!

12-20-2013, 11:04 AM	#7
tr1ckyn1ck Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: ON Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 60 Original Poster	Okay. So set the flash power for the aperture and ISO I want, then use the shutter speed to control the ambient exposure (but stay below 1/180). I'll try this.

12-20-2013, 11:15 AM	#8
elliott Inactive Account Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: North Carolina Photos: Albums Posts: 1,720	Originally posted by Canada_Rockies I think you have a typo there. Should be Slower than 1/180 to allow both shutter curtains to be open at the same time. Yes I do, I blame the cough syrup.

12-20-2013, 11:17 AM	#9
devorama Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Chicago, IL Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 638	That's the beauty of digital photography. Try a bunch of stuff and experiment. The feedback is cheap and immediate. Just make sure to do your experimenting in advance of your actual shoot. You want to have it all worked out before you have live subjects.

12-20-2013, 11:22 AM	#10
Joojoo2010 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 306	Yes radiotrigger works always, iget always tired with flash slave modes cos sometimes flash will trigger them sometimes not. About ur question, i use setup like ur planning a lot with kids. I like use light stand so i can get my flash more near roof (must be white roof ofcource) and almoust what ever position in room i want. I use about 85mm in flash head, i just like tele more than wide cos i not like light going everywhere too much...it goes anyway enough. Its matter of taste u just try what u like in ur pics. Corners in room are even better to shoot flash but then must have totally white walls also to use walls too for bouncing. I use camera mode M always to have all control. Speed depends mostly if i want to balance flash with avAilable light or use only flash to light pics. If only flash then use 1/180s. Normally i balance available light about 2 av underexposure but that depend also little, anyway i do not use times slower than 1/20s with kids and many times that is too slow also but it depends how much they move. Aperture depends totally what kind of pic u want, between f1.4-f16. Then adjust iso and flash power. I normally start adjust flash from value 1/4. If u want to balance ur flash with room lighs u will needuse color gels with ur flash. Edit. I hope that was clearrly put cos i did get disturbed while writing this...

12-20-2013, 01:02 PM	#11
tr1ckyn1ck Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: ON Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 60 Original Poster	Thanks for all the advice. I have been playing around with this using the optical triggering (because I haven't picked up radio triggers yet) and it looks good. I just need to work with flash placement a bit. One final question: if the scene is mostly lit by the flash, then the shutter speed will have no effect on motion blurring (i.e., I can freeze kids' movement even at 1/125 or slower)? Then I am assuming motion blur creeps in as the ambient lighting increases? I usually have to shoot my kids at 1/500 to freeze things enough.

12-20-2013, 02:03 PM	#12
Canada_Rockies Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sparwood, BC, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,385	The flash duration is very short. So, yes.