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12-29-2013, 02:25 PM   #31
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This 300 is never still on a tripod. I made a DIY lens mount and it helped but there were still those 'micro tremors'. This worked. essentially liquid in a bag.

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12-29-2013, 04:45 PM - 1 Like   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
But that can also be caused by simply tripping the shutter before it is ready (before the little hand icon is solid). See we don't much have hard data on this, just people saying I've got blur but aren't quite sure of the conditions under which they've got it.
True, there's lots of reasons for blur and an odd blurred shot will likely be blamed on SR if it is tripod mounted. It can also be caused by a dump truck hitting a pothole a half mile away and all kinds of weird things. We often see landscape shots that aren't sharp because the chosen shutter speed didn't account for the wind. The people who design and build SR systems for cameras and lenses test the systems pretty thoroughly in controlled tests and if they say it can cause blur sometimes and to leave it turned off on a tripod, I see no point in arguing. I forget often and get away with it but I don't think I should ignore the advice.
12-29-2013, 04:52 PM   #33
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Although analogies are usually not really the best--the one of the ABS brakes is useful. To stop on glare ice (especially if also downhill)--the best is if one disables the ABS brakes--but they don't have this option.

For camera--pretty easy to make a decision whether the SR should or should not be used! Right now it generally is: Not on monopod/tripod--better w/, on monopod/tripod better w/o, except following action by moving camera--generally not on SR, etc.

Why make the system decide too much--as there will be situations where it does not decide for the best. Same w/ cameras and auto exposure system. Would you want this w/o override?
12-29-2013, 07:59 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by dms Quote
Although analogies are usually not really the best--the one of the ABS brakes is useful. To stop on glare ice (especially if also downhill)--the best is if one disables the ABS brakes--but they don't have this option.

For camera--pretty easy to make a decision whether the SR should or should not be used! Right now it generally is: Not on monopod/tripod--better w/, on monopod/tripod better w/o, except following action by moving camera--generally not on SR, etc.

Why make the system decide too much--as there will be situations where it does not decide for the best. Same w/ cameras and auto exposure system. Would you want this w/o override?
Don't get me wrong, I want full control, and I will learn as much as possible to get the shots I want. But, I want the camera to be as smart as possible about anything automated. And detecting a condition that turns a solution into a problem isn't so tough. Documenting the failure to do so (in order to shift responsibility to the user) is not the way to break into the top tier, and that is clearly where Pentax wants to go.

I came from the land of EOS. Some of what exists in the land of Pentax entirely outclasses the Canon equivalent. And other stuff is not ready for prime time. There should be no such thing as "too steady" in photography. The fact that my new camera requires me to remember to disable and reenable something in order for that to be true is a disappointment. I'll cope, but I'll be thrilled if this is addressed in a firmware update, and I'll be happy enough if it is addressed well in the K-next body. That's all I'm saying.

12-29-2013, 09:06 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by BretW Quote
Don't get me wrong, I want full control, and I will learn as much as possible to get the shots I want. But, I want the camera to be as smart as possible about anything automated. And detecting a condition that turns a solution into a problem isn't so tough. Documenting the failure to do so (in order to shift responsibility to the user) is not the way to break into the top tier, and that is clearly where Pentax wants to go.

I came from the land of EOS. Some of what exists in the land of Pentax entirely outclasses the Canon equivalent. And other stuff is not ready for prime time. There should be no such thing as "too steady" in photography. The fact that my new camera requires me to remember to disable and reenable something in order for that to be true is a disappointment. I'll cope, but I'll be thrilled if this is addressed in a firmware update, and I'll be happy enough if it is addressed well in the K-next body. That's all I'm saying.
I believe their idea is that if you put your camera on a tripod you will probably use a delay or remote. Selecting either of these drive modes turns SM off. Smart enough methinks.
12-29-2013, 10:10 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by DeepThrob Quote
I believe their idea is that if you put your camera on a tripod you will probably use a delay or remote. Selecting either of these drive modes turns SM off. Smart enough methinks.
Why would they think that?

They have targeted me as a photographer with their weather-proofness. And I'm compelled. So long Canon! The ability to have my equipment out in bad conditions is a very big deal, and the ruggedness matters. But they don't seem to understand me as a photographer. My tripod and my rubber boots go into the field together. I don't often have the luxury of delays and remotes. Once-in-a-lifetime stuff happens in front of me, and then it is gone. I want whatever features and settings increase my chance of capturing these things, and doing so well. A camera that blurs shots if held too steady... That really seems ok to you?

Bret
12-30-2013, 02:04 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by BretW Quote
A camera that blurs shots if held too steady... That really seems ok to you?

Bret
You have misunderstood, if the camera is held steady you will not have a problem.
The thing is that when you press the shutter you will have movement inside the camera, the mirror flips up and the image sensor is lifted from its rest position to the center of the image circle, shutter will open.

IF the camera is mounted on a really flimsy tripod and you press the shutter button on the camera without supporting the camera with your hands, you might get the whole thing to move, if not by your finger perhaps by the movement of the cameras internal mechanics. And with SR activated the movements will be detected and counteracted by more movement inside the camera, with a flimsy enough tripod things will start to shake.

That is the problem, not holding things too steady.
If your tripod is weak, and you still want to press the shutter directly on the camera, support the camera with your hands and all is well.

Then there is an old myth going around that if you press the shutter button before SR is ready, SR will ruin the shot. That is just wrong.
SR knows when it is ready and when it is not (remember the hand icon). So if you press before SR is ready, the SR system plainly disable SR for that shot and you get a picture with SR off. It does not (as some seems to believe) try to do some random shake reduction movements.

Edit: I'll have to take some of that above back. It was true for the K10d, turns out it's no longer true for the K5. I will call that a bug in the K5 implementation. If one half press and wait for the hand icon the SR stays "ready" even if you shake like a madman, this is not correct (it's impossible) the Icon should go out and SR should reinitialize (like on the K10d and the K5 if you let go of the button), a simple test also showed that SR thinks its ready and fires with a faulty result. (damnit, is SHOULD have turned off SR in this case).

What you should NOT do (with the K5, at least with earlier firmware) is try to do panning shots with SR on. They have introduced a bug that plainly ruins the shot even if you pan long and smoothly before firing. This worked with the K10d but not with the K5, oddly enough the bug is not there if you pan with live view enabled. Still chances are slim that panning with SR turns out well. Most often SR will automatically be disabled due to too much irregular movements.

I have more to say about this, but I stop here.

Last edited by Gimbal; 12-30-2013 at 03:01 AM.
12-30-2013, 05:21 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by BretW Quote
Don't get me wrong, I want full control, and I will learn as much as possible to get the shots I want. But, I want the camera to be as smart as possible about anything automated. And detecting a condition that turns a solution into a problem isn't so tough. Documenting the failure to do so (in order to shift responsibility to the user) is not the way to break into the top tier, and that is clearly where Pentax wants to go.

I came from the land of EOS. Some of what exists in the land of Pentax entirely outclasses the Canon equivalent. And other stuff is not ready for prime time. There should be no such thing as "too steady" in photography. The fact that my new camera requires me to remember to disable and reenable something in order for that to be true is a disappointment. I'll cope, but I'll be thrilled if this is addressed in a firmware update, and I'll be happy enough if it is addressed well in the K-next body. That's all I'm saying.
Although I don't own a Canon, I have shot with Nikon which my daughter owns. They have SR built into the lenses and they have the same recommendation about tripod shooting, turn it off. It isn't a bug that can be fixed in firmware. I would guess Canon would be the same. The only way to fix things like you suggest would be to stop building in camera SR and build it into the lenses. Of course you will still have to remember to turn it on or off on the lens. You can also leave SR off all the time and it will never be a problem.

12-30-2013, 10:30 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
Then there is an old myth going around that if you press the shutter button before SR is ready, SR will ruin the shot. That is just wrong.
SR knows when it is ready and when it is not (remember the hand icon). So if you press before SR is ready, the SR system plainly disable SR for that shot and you get a picture with SR off. It does not (as some seems to believe) try to do some random shake reduction movements.
Well, blur because it needed to be on or blur because of its own movements, same difference if it is not ready, although it does seem like I've gotten bad results under conditions where I won't have really needed it but maybe fired too quick. Something else to test...
12-30-2013, 12:30 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
Well, blur because it needed to be on or blur because of its own movements, same difference if it is not ready, although it does seem like I've gotten bad results under conditions where I won't have really needed it but maybe fired too quick. Something else to test...
As I also wrote, I was partly wrong. The K5 (and apparently also the K-r) seems to have a faulty behavior (IMHO) and actually can ruin a shot if you fire before the SR is ready. Newer and older models recognize when SR isn't ready and turns SR off in those cases.

K5 and K-r refuses to disable SR even if you shake rattle and roll like mad as long as you half press the shutter button, and the result can thus be erroneous if you shot to quick even when the SR icon is lit. This is not good.

So we have to forget about the SR-icon, it lies (if you have a K5 or K-r that is). Always hold still for at least one second before firing when using SR, even if the icon is lit.
12-30-2013, 02:16 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by reeftool Quote
Although I don't own a Canon, I have shot with Nikon which my daughter owns. They have SR built into the lenses and they have the same recommendation about tripod shooting, turn it off. It isn't a bug that can be fixed in firmware. I would guess Canon would be the same. The only way to fix things like you suggest would be to stop building in camera SR and build it into the lenses. Of course you will still have to remember to turn it on or off on the lens. You can also leave SR off all the time and it will never be a problem.
I take your point, more or less, but I feel mine is perennially lost in this discussion.

What I am not saying: I want a perfect SR system that addresses all contingencies.

My specialty as a biologist is evolutionary trade-offs. I know of no perfect systems. What's more, I know why they can not exist. But I also know that the cost of an adaptation can often be minimized to a great degree. Birds do not walk around with their wings extended just because extended wings allow flight...

What I am saying: If SR should be off in situations with recognizable signature, then detecting that signature and disabling SR should occur automatically

Pentax has instead (apparently) buried a warning deep within a manual--one that is not nearly comprehensive enough for me to do an intelligent job of assessing the relative merits of SR in a given situation. Rather, I'm just a dumb tripod detector, except that I'm also human and I'm bound to forget to disable SR sometimes when I should, and bound to forget to re-enable it when I go back to normal shooting. That means I'm going to lose two kinds of shots that a dumb--but reliable--detector would allow me to catch.

I should have done this at the start, but I have now searched the K3 Manual PDF for the words "Tripod" and then separately "Shake". I didn't spend a lot of time, but in the looking I did, I didn't find the warning. This thread starts with "I think I read..."

Does anyone have the exact wording, or a page number, so we can see the exact advice? If it is there, is it sufficiently informative that I can at least infer what the difference in my behavior should be when faced with:

1) a flimsy tripod with the center column extended
2) a great tripod with zero extension
3) Camera stably sitting on a 10 ton rock

?

Bret
12-30-2013, 02:29 PM   #42
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Do you have a camera, do you have tripod? If yes on both questions, try them and report back if you find a problem.

It's not that easy to build a reliable tripod detector. You cant use the mount itself since many (most?) people will leave the tripod quick release plate mounted on the camera at all times.

My answer to the three points above is, use a remote.

If you have to hold the camera at the same time, that probably is because there is action involved with quick motions needed, thus turn SR off due to quick motion. If quick motion is not involved, let go of the camera and use a remote.

Last edited by Gimbal; 12-30-2013 at 02:38 PM.
12-30-2013, 03:01 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
Do you have a camera, do you have tripod? If yes on both questions, try them and report back if you find a problem.
No time. I'm too busy formulating uninformed opinions.

But in all seriousness, it's a good idea in principle, and I will do it, but:

1) For the moment I'm stuck with a single lens that will not be a major player in my serious field arsenal (Kit 18-135--I have just moved from Canon to Pentax and am building back up to field readiness as finances allow). My kit-lens situation will change tomorrow when I pick up my newish DA* 300. Then I will have a much more relevant set-up to test empirically.

2) It sounds like some who have seen the problem, have only seen it sometimes. So I expect a "negative" result that won't be all that informative. In the event of a positive result (i.e. tripod-induced blur) I will know something important, but it will put me right back at wanting the camera to detect the problem scenario and disable SR automatically.

I still want to know what it actually says in the "manual".
12-30-2013, 03:22 PM   #44
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I looked under SR (in my Kx manual) and it clearly says:
-- not to use SR w/ tripod
--SR is not active w/ remote, bulb or 2 sec (mirror up) timer

Pretty sure it says same in my K20d manual, and would expect same in any of the Pentax dslr's manuals.

Earlier post about feedback loop (started by mirror up/shutter vibrations) makes most sense--remember when we hold camera our flesh acts as an absorber, while on the tripod the camera body acts more like a bell being hit by the clapper.

Suggest you get some experience w/ your Pentax before re-engineering the camera
12-30-2013, 03:41 PM   #45
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I think the concept of the camera deciding whether or not to use SR brings in too many variables.

for example, how long a sample size before camera decides its on a tripod? 1 sec? 1 millisecond? 3 secs?
a lot could happen while i'm waiting for the camera to decide what i'm doing

also, i'm a former army marksman, on good days I bet I could hold a camera steady "long enough" that SR would think its on a tripod and would turn off just before I squeezed the shutter and actually needed it. wouldn't that be a mess

I can get a very steady mount using a car window or a log or a tree. Do I really want the camera deciding at that moment to turn of SR?

I really wouldn't want to trust software to figure out what I'm doing. I've worked with MS Office long enough to know that software thinks its smarter than you when it really isn't.

It's up to the photographer to utilize the tools as provided and the manufacture to make things as "dummy proof" as possible. Sometimes simpler is better. In this case, use mirror lockup when on a tripod and the SR turns off automatically. Since one very rarely uses mirror lock up handheld, the solution is already in place.
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