Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
04-11-2014, 11:17 AM   #31
Pentaxian
g026r's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Toronto
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,418
I believe that CR2 files can be edited and re-saved as CR2 in Canon's Digital Photo Professional [DPP] software, but I don't have any CR2s to check with.

Nikon themselves state that NEF files can be resaved as NEF after editing in their software:

QuoteQuote:
After-capture processing of the NEF file by Nikon's Capture NX2 software, or other imaging programs, offers greater control over the final image than the processing of a JPEG or a TIFF. After processing, the NEF file can be saved as a TIFF, JPEG or again as a NEF with the addition of any applied Capture NX2 processing saved inside the file as a second or alternate instruction set.
(Emphasis mine. From here.)

What you can't do with CR2 and NEF files is edit them in third-party programs like Adobe and re-save as the native format.

I suppose the real question is: can you alter a DNG file and re-save it so that you can't see what changes were applied to the image and then un-apply them? I've never tried, so I don't know. (Since with DPP and Capture NX2, the saved files appear to be the original image data and the list of adjustments. The adjustments are then applied to the displayed image when it's re-opened in DPP or Capture NX2.)

04-11-2014, 11:23 AM   #32
Forum Member




Join Date: Feb 2014
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 87
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by g026r Quote
I believe that CR2 files can be edited and re-saved as CR2 in Canon's Digital Photo Professional [DPP] software, but I don't have any CR2s to check with.

Nikon themselves state that NEF files can be resaved as NEF after editing in their software:

(Emphasis mine. From here.)

What you can't do with CR2 and NEF files is edit them in third-party programs like Adobe and re-save as the native format.

I suppose the real question is: can you alter a DNG file and re-save it so that you can't see what changes were applied to the image and then un-apply them? I've never tried, so I don't know. (Since with DPP and Capture NX2, the saved files appear to be the original image data and the list of adjustments. The adjustments are then applied to the displayed image when it's re-opened in DPP or Capture NX2.)
OK, so this sounds like big news for me and my lowly Pentax to this club. Help me find a way to contest their rules. I'm going to try to alter a .dng and resave it under the same format and see if I can find anything on the data that would indicate alterations. I am learning by leaps and bounds here, so keep your comments coming!
04-11-2014, 01:14 PM   #33
Loyal Site Supporter
clackers's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Albums
Posts: 9,008
QuoteOriginally posted by NancyK Quote
Help me find a way to contest their rules.
Win it with a heavily doctored RAW file, Nancy - an HDR-ed, pano-ed and focus-stacked masterpiece.

Or simply go by the spirit of the competition instead of the loopholes.

It's presumably a club run for goodwill rather than profit. Voluntary office bearers rely on members to do the right thing by everyone else - there isn't time to also be active rules police!

Last edited by clackers; 04-11-2014 at 01:27 PM.
04-12-2014, 12:22 AM   #34
Veteran Member
Barry Pearson's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Stockport
Posts: 870
QuoteOriginally posted by g026r Quote
I suppose the real question is: can you alter a DNG file and re-save it so that you can't see what changes were applied to the image and then un-apply them? I've never tried, so I don't know. (Since with DPP and Capture NX2, the saved files appear to be the original image data and the list of adjustments. The adjustments are then applied to the displayed image when it's re-opened in DPP or Capture NX2.)
When DNGs are saved with edits, it is just like the CR2s and NEFs - the edits are saved as metadata that can be understood by Adobe software. In effect, the metadata records the positions of the sliders in Lightroom and ACR.

I suspect the confusion in the minds of the club officials arises from using Adobe software themselves. Adobe software can use the editing metadata put into DNGs by Adobe software, but not that in CR2s or NEFs because that wasn't put in by Adobe software.

If they used some other software to examine the DNGs, it wouldn't use the Adobe editing metadata, just as that other software wouldn't use the CR2 or NEF editing metadata. And if they used Canon software to examine CR2s, or Nikon software to examine NEFs, they would see the results of the edits!

It appears that they have jumped to the wrong conclusion as a result of only having superficial knowledge of what raw editing software does.

---------- Post added 12th Apr 2014 at 08:35 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by NancyK Quote
I have a bit of an update for anyone who was watching this thread. The photo contest I was attempting to enter is called "Basic Photography" and they are judging the entries by the basic skills of the photographer (without any post processing). It is possible to take a .dng file, save it as a .jpg and then edit it and resave it as a .dng file. So I now understand why they will not accept this type of file. A little bit of trust would be nice though.
How do you edit a JPEG then resave it as a DNG file? What software has "DNG" in its list of "Save as ...." formats?

What would be in the DNG file? (Obviously not raw image data!).

Note - I am aware of "Linear DNG", but that is not a raw file format. Unfortunately, I can't think of a simple way of distinguishing between normal DNG and Linear DNG. I can distinguish in seconds because I have suitable software, but I'm not sure how club officials could distinguish, using just the software they are likely to have.

04-12-2014, 05:05 AM   #35
Pentaxian
Oldbayrunner's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Havre de Grace, MD
Posts: 1,234
QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote

How do you edit a JPEG then resave it as a DNG file? What software has "DNG" in its list of "Save as ...." formats?
Older versions of lightroom used to be able to use the export feature to save a jpeg as a dng file. I don't know if the newer version still does or not. Also the older versions of Adobe dng converter used to be able to convert jpeg to dng. As it is now if you use enhancements in ACR you don't need to save the files to jpeg or save them at all, just click done, which I guess is a form of saving in ACR. You then can copy the dng file, put it on a flash drive, email it etc. and the file will open in any other photo viewer with those changes being applied, HOWEVER the exif will show the creation date and time along with any "modification" date and time. It is the same if you use a manufacturers native raw file editing software.
04-12-2014, 07:18 AM   #36
New Member




Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 23
dng format is the raw file type supported by raw converters...
04-12-2014, 05:39 PM   #37
Forum Member




Join Date: Feb 2014
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 87
Original Poster
Yes, every time I edit a dng photo, regardless of what program I look at it with, you can see the modified date.
02-01-2016, 06:29 PM   #38
Forum Member




Join Date: Feb 2014
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 87
Original Poster
To follow up, I finally gave up on entering this particular contest because I never was able to convince the chairman that .dng was a RAW file. But recently, I found out through the grapevine that the contest had been discontinued because of this very issue. Apparently, I was not the only one in the club of 500 that does not shoot Canon or Nikon.

02-02-2016, 11:07 AM - 1 Like   #39
PDL
Pentaxian




Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Woodinville, WA USA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,175
I use ExifTool to add information into both DNG and PEF images. The program writes the information for "Artist/Author", Copyright, GPS, Location, State/Province, Country etc. I can also enter keywords, however the most important thing I do is to copy the Pentax Lens Name into the EXIF LensID field so Capture One can provide me with the ability to sort out how many times I use a given lens.

And yes there are organizations (not just photo clubs) that require RAW files to be delivered. National Geographic photographers, at least the last time I looked, were required to put their RAW images on a hard drive and send them into headquarters. Back in the day, NG required that the photographers send in slides (i.e. transparencies) because it was very difficult to post process a slide. One NG photographer walked us through the process, half way through the project, in his case, he was called back to Washington DC and sat in a ROOM full of editors where each slide was judged. Remember, we are talking thousands of slides, he said he took on average 10,000 images per project. The assignment he was on, one that he proposed to NG too, had a final run of 12 or so images (nice Keeper/ratio eh?) If the editors could not come up with an "acceptable" set of images, another photographer was given the assignment. Truly brutal.

As for the OP, ask the photo contest "coordinator" why they won't allow a Leica shooter to participate. If I remember correctly Leica's RAW is DNG only. If I had a Leica I would be plenty p*ssed if I could not take part.

The Elitist - formerly known as PDL

Last edited by PDL; 02-02-2016 at 11:10 AM. Reason: clarification
02-03-2016, 07:44 AM   #40
Forum Member




Join Date: Feb 2014
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 87
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by PDL Quote
I use ExifTool to add information into both DNG and PEF images. The program writes the information for "Artist/Author", Copyright, GPS, Location, State/Province, Country etc. I can also enter keywords, however the most important thing I do is to copy the Pentax Lens Name into the EXIF LensID field so Capture One can provide me with the ability to sort out how many times I use a given lens.

And yes there are organizations (not just photo clubs) that require RAW files to be delivered. National Geographic photographers, at least the last time I looked, were required to put their RAW images on a hard drive and send them into headquarters. Back in the day, NG required that the photographers send in slides (i.e. transparencies) because it was very difficult to post process a slide. One NG photographer walked us through the process, half way through the project, in his case, he was called back to Washington DC and sat in a ROOM full of editors where each slide was judged. Remember, we are talking thousands of slides, he said he took on average 10,000 images per project. The assignment he was on, one that he proposed to NG too, had a final run of 12 or so images (nice Keeper/ratio eh?) If the editors could not come up with an "acceptable" set of images, another photographer was given the assignment. Truly brutal.

As for the OP, ask the photo contest "coordinator" why they won't allow a Leica shooter to participate. If I remember correctly Leica's RAW is DNG only. If I had a Leica I would be plenty p*ssed if I could not take part.

The Elitist - formerly known as PDL
The contest coordinator, who started and controlled the contest continuously insisted that the ONLY files that would be accepted were RAW files. However, it was stated in the contest rules that .dng would absolutely NOT be accepted. .DNG files are perfectly acceptable by the entire photographic industry as RAW files. His reasoning was that "a .dng file can be edited, while .nef and .crw files cannot, which I now understand is utter nonsense. At the time, I was shooting with the Pentax K-30 which does not produce .pef files....only .dng.

Last edited by NancyK; 02-03-2016 at 07:51 AM.
02-03-2016, 01:15 PM   #41
Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 27,415
QuoteOriginally posted by NancyK Quote
DNG files are perfectly acceptable by the entire photographic industry as RAW files. His reasoning was that "a .dng file can be edited, while .nef and .crw files cannot, which I now understand is utter nonsense.
Not utter nonsense. DNG is a RAW file type, but that is not an indication that the image has not been edited. DNG may be generated on export from Adobe products such as Lightroom and are not exclusively camera-generated.* In fact, I can make a DNG from a computer drawing if I wish. In regards to camera-makers RAW formats, the EXIF (metadata) in the file may most assuredly be edited. I do it all the time. That being said, I do not believe it is practical to surgically insert an edited raster image (a composite, for example) in a form that would stand in for camera-generated data in a PEF, CRW, or NEF file. It makes my mind hurt imagining what would be involved. It would definitely not be worth the programming effort to write such a utility.


Steve

* There is potential for significant differences between a Lightroom-generated DNG and one from your camera, but both are fully valid DNG and both technically "RAW".
02-03-2016, 03:35 PM   #42
PDL
Pentaxian




Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Woodinville, WA USA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,175
If the coordinator does not know how to simply detect whether or not a file has been modified, then bad on him.
Here is a information sample from a dng file from a basic running of Exiftool:
Create Date : 2014:03:29 09:58:38
File Modification Date/Time : 2015:06:20 17:49:02-07:00
History Action : derived, saved, derived, saved
History Parameters : saved to new location, saved to new location
(I figured out how to add GPS and Camera Lens information into the EXIF information last year using EXIFTool Gui.)

So there are ways to use a scan of the EXIF/IPTC metadata to derive "modifications". To use an file extension as a method of deriving "originality" is somewhat bizarre and the coordinator should be presented with those facts. While it is not easy or convenient it is not impossible to find out if a RAW file has been modified. A killer field, as I see it is:
Quality : RAW
For both DNG and PEF files.

So what would the coordinator do if your camera only shoots JPEG or you scan a negative to produce a TIFF? I did a stupid thing where I deleted all of my images off my card, recovered them as TIFFs and renamed them to PEF. How would he/she tell? Just sounds a little bogus to me.

The Elitist - formerly known as PDL
05-06-2017, 11:30 AM   #43
Site Supporter




Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 3
Any programmer with the spec can generate whatever type of file they want, so you could generate a CR2 or NEF from a JPEG or whatever format, complete with fake metadata etc, if you know what you're doing. So the prohibition against DNG is just ignorance on the part of the coordinator. It's too bad these people see the software they're using as some kind of "end game" or proof of limitation...there's a whole layer of complexity under their assumptions they are missing.

There another problem with the contest, described as being as assessment of the photographer's skill, and it taps into a frustration I had early on with my Pentax K-30: the camera by default under-exposes everything, even in Manual mode. You either have to override this default in the camera (and risk losing detail in the highlights), or you simply *must* do some post-processing just to make the result look natural. I've never used Nikon or Canon, but I'm sure they also have some tweaks that are required to overcome limitations or quirks of their equipment.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
adobe, animals, bit, dng, dngs, files, format, image, k-30, landscape, metadata, motion, pentax help, photographer, photos, pictures, raw, resave, software, wildlife, wildlife photographer
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
K-30 & K-5 Raw Formats The Same? Schmidt Pentax K-30 & K-50 6 10-14-2013 07:04 PM
k-30: how to format a memory card? ccrookston Troubleshooting and Beginner Help 2 08-12-2013 04:27 PM
RAW file format selection with the K-5 PALADIN85020 Pentax K-5 25 01-08-2011 09:03 PM
RAW format to use for new K-x? p-bags Pentax DSLR Discussion 15 04-09-2010 01:44 PM
ACDSee to support K-7 RAW format? bymy141 Digital Processing, Software, and Printing 4 11-03-2009 03:47 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:37 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top