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02-18-2014, 09:26 PM   #1
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K-30 RAW Format


I own the Pentax K-30 and am trying to shoot RAW. The image format is set to RAW and it says it'sshooting in RAW, but all the files shot in RAW, when opened on the PC, sayDNG. The camera manual says this is anAdobe format and that the K-30 saves RAW files in the DNG format. I need to shoot RAW for some of myphotography....is there any way?


02-18-2014, 10:40 PM - 1 Like   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by NancyK Quote
I own the Pentax K-30 and am trying to shoot RAW. The image format is set to RAW and it says it'sshooting in RAW, but all the files shot in RAW, when opened on the PC, sayDNG. The camera manual says this is anAdobe format and that the K-30 saves RAW files in the DNG format. I need to shoot RAW for some of myphotography....is there any way?
DNG is a raw format. There is no such thing as a ".RAW" file since each manufacturer does their files differently. Pentax files are normally .PEF's, but their more recent DSLRs also support adobe's universal DNG format, which has better compatibility out of the box.

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02-18-2014, 11:03 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
but their more recent DSLRs also support adobe's universal DNG format, which has better compatibility out of the box.
The K-30, K-50, and K-500 all have DNG as their sole RAW format. The Pentax flagship products have supported both DNG and PEF back to the K10D.

As noted by Adam, the DNG format is a perfectly acceptable RAW file type and offers wide support by most RAW converters.


Steve
02-19-2014, 12:47 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by NancyK Quote
I own the Pentax K-30 and am trying to shoot RAW. The image format is set to RAW and it says it'sshooting in RAW, but all the files shot in RAW, when opened on the PC, sayDNG. The camera manual says this is anAdobe format and that the K-30 saves RAW files in the DNG format. I need to shoot RAW for some of myphotography....is there any way?
As others have said, DNG is a raw file format.

I've written more than you are likely to want to know about DNG! Here are the articles: DNG - Digital Negative format

02-19-2014, 07:23 PM   #5
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Your answers are very helpful, thank you for your responses to my question.
02-20-2014, 05:50 PM   #6
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Along the same discussion, I recently joined a photo club with over 400 members, so I assume they know what they're talking about, but the contest rules require that any photo submitted MUST be RAW. In addition the rules also specifically say that DNG files are NOT ACCEPTABLE. However, all of my photos taken with the K-30 in RAW image format, when opened by Picasa or PS Elements have the DNG file extension. When I read the manual, it says that the Pentax K-30 saves RAW files in DNG (Adobe Digital Negative). So, is there a file extension for RAW files? Can you tell me how I would be able to submit a RAW file to a club that will not accept DNG files or am I just SOL?
02-20-2014, 06:13 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by NancyK Quote
Along the same discussion, I recently joined a photo club with over 400 members, so I assume they know what they're talking about, but the contest rules require that any photo submitted MUST be RAW. In addition the rules also specifically say that DNG files are NOT ACCEPTABLE. However, all of my photos taken with the K-30 in RAW image format, when opened by Picasa or PS Elements have the DNG file extension. When I read the manual, it says that the Pentax K-30 saves RAW files in DNG (Adobe Digital Negative). So, is there a file extension for RAW files? Can you tell me how I would be able to submit a RAW file to a club that will not accept DNG files or am I just SOL?
You might want to get clarification from the person responsible for the contest. I don't know of any camera maker that currently uses the RAW file extension except maybe Panasonic and Leica for their P&S cameras. The common extensions I am aware of are:
.dng (Adobe digital negative)
.nef (Nikon)
.cr2/.crw (Canon)
.orf (Olympus)
.pef (Pentax)
.arw (Sony)
There are dozens more. See Wikipedia: Raw image format. As for the contest guidelines, I don't know what benefit a RAW file might be. RAW is not an image format per se. It is the "raw" output of the camera's image processor and cannot be viewed without applying rules for "development" and conversion into a form that is compatible with the viewing device. Usually this involves processing the RAW file using a tool for RAW conversion* with the final file output being one of several common image formats (JPEG, TIFF, BMP, etc.). The RAW file is analogous to a photographic negative while the final output image file is analogous to the print. A negative can be interpreted thousands of ways, but only one fits the photographer's initial intent for the image.

To be succinct, a RAW file regardless of type is basically useless and would not include ANY post-processing you might want to have done. That would include things as fundamental as initial white balance settings. If the event organizer insists on .raw file extension, no DNG, and RAW only, I think I would find another club where they know what they are doing. A more reasonable requirement would be images of some minimum pixel resolution as loss-less JPEG or TIFF with all EXIF intact.


Steve

* Both Picasa and PS Elements have built-in RAW convertors

Last edited by stevebrot; 02-20-2014 at 06:30 PM.
02-20-2014, 06:34 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by NancyK Quote
Along the same discussion, I recently joined a photo club with over 400 members, so I assume they know what they're talking about, but the contest rules require that any photo submitted MUST be RAW. In addition the rules also specifically say that DNG files are NOT ACCEPTABLE. However, all of my photos taken with the K-30 in RAW image format, when opened by Picasa or PS Elements have the DNG file extension. When I read the manual, it says that the Pentax K-30 saves RAW files in DNG (Adobe Digital Negative). So, is there a file extension for RAW files? Can you tell me how I would be able to submit a RAW file to a club that will not accept DNG files or am I just SOL?
That's, um, bizarre of them on a few counts. First, requiring an artist to submit raw files is non-standard. It's like giving away your negative, which I simply won't do. Also, the curator for the club then has to deal with all types of unique raw files,which is an invitation for all sorts of color management issues. If anyrthing, DNG should be the one required raw format. Even at that, transferring a huge D800 file ain't fun for many people.

But really,the goal of their activity should be to judge the image as a finished work and jpegs suffice well at this. If they won't accept your DNG or jpeg file (and I suppose it is worth a few lines of an email or a five minute conversation to explain yourself), then I recommend you hang elsewhere.

M

02-24-2014, 06:23 PM   #9
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To be clearer. Dng and Pef are raw containers - they contain the raw data and a lot of other data. The exif, metadata, and preview jpegs.
And yes, nobody should demand an artist to submit their raw. The only time anyone should ask for raw is if you are accused of plagiarism/stealing photos.
If someone wants a format that is higher quality than jpeg, you can send them a Tiff file - simply open the raw in photoshop, process it, then save it as tiff. But the file will be huge!
Keep in mind that the raw data is NOT an image, NOT a photograph. Its just data. Like an undeveloped film in the canister. Raw developing software reads this data, interprets it (in its own way - that is why the same raw file can look different depending on which software you use). Then you process it and finally export an image, a photo.
Raw is nobody's business but your own All good photographers hide their raw data, just like magicians hide their tricks and tools
02-24-2014, 11:22 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by NancyK Quote
Along the same discussion, I recently joined a photo club with over 400 members, so I assume they know what they're talking about,.............
Assumption is the mother of all screw-ups

I would look elsewhere for a photo club
02-25-2014, 01:40 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by NancyK Quote
Along the same discussion, I recently joined a photo club with over 400 members, so I assume they know what they're talking about, but the contest rules require that any photo submitted MUST be RAW. In addition the rules also specifically say that DNG files are NOT ACCEPTABLE. However, all of my photos taken with the K-30 in RAW image format, when opened by Picasa or PS Elements have the DNG file extension. When I read the manual, it says that the Pentax K-30 saves RAW files in DNG (Adobe Digital Negative). So, is there a file extension for RAW files? Can you tell me how I would be able to submit a RAW file to a club that will not accept DNG files or am I just SOL?
There is sometimes a real case for wanting raw files in a competition. (See below). And DNG out of a Pentax (or Leica, or Ricoh, or Seitz, or .... many others) should always be acceptable.

I don't see the case for banning DNGs converted from the native raw format either. But some people simply don't understand DNG!

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
You might want to get clarification from the person responsible for the contest. I don't know of any camera maker that currently uses the RAW file extension except maybe Panasonic and Leica for their P&S cameras.

<snip>

As for the contest guidelines, I don't know what benefit a RAW file might be.
There have been lots of camera makers and camera models that use DNG in-camera. See my (now out-of-date) Cameras that write DNG. Or go to the Wikipedia page for DNG.

QuoteOriginally posted by Miguel Quote
That's, um, bizarre of them on a few counts. First, requiring an artist to submit raw files is non-standard. It's like giving away your negative, which I simply won't do. Also, the curator for the club then has to deal with all types of unique raw files,which is an invitation for all sorts of color management issues. If anyrthing, DNG should be the one required raw format. Even at that, transferring a huge D800 file ain't fun for many people.
There is sometimes a case for supplying the raw file, see below.

QuoteOriginally posted by Na Horuk Quote
And yes, nobody should demand an artist to submit their raw. The only time anyone should ask for raw is if you are accused of plagiarism/stealing photos.
Some competitions, and Salons making awards, impose strict rules for some sections/categories. The main one of these is Nature / Natural History, but it can also apply to Travel, and perhaps others.

See, for example, section 15 of the rules for the 2nd GREEK PHOTOGRAPHIC CIRCUIT 2014 International Photographic salon of fine art photography. I had 3 acceptances of Gannet and Red Kite photos, obviously obeying the rules.

I didn't have to supply the raw files (which are DNGs from a K-5IIs). But had I won a major prize in a competition, I may have been asked to. I see no objection to this - I don't want the people I am competing with to cheat, so I shouldn't be able to either.

Distinguish between an "Open" section or category, where pretty well anything goes nowadays, and those sections where a deliberate major part of the challenge is to get it right in the camera, and (for example) not superimpose an animal taken in a zoo on a wild background.

Last edited by Barry Pearson; 02-25-2014 at 01:45 AM.
02-25-2014, 07:12 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by NancyK Quote
Along the same discussion, I recently joined a photo club with over 400 members, so I assume they know what they're talking about, but the contest rules require that any photo submitted MUST be RAW. In addition the rules also specifically say that DNG files are NOT ACCEPTABLE. However, all of my photos taken with the K-30 in RAW image format, when opened by Picasa or PS Elements have the DNG file extension. When I read the manual, it says that the Pentax K-30 saves RAW files in DNG (Adobe Digital Negative). So, is there a file extension for RAW files? Can you tell me how I would be able to submit a RAW file to a club that will not accept DNG files or am I just SOL?
Nancy, somehow it seems that whoever is giving you this info doesn't know what they are talking about. DNG files might be the only ones for RAW images that aren't tied to a specific camera maker because they use the only semi-standard file format for RAW images in the industry. I think everything else is proprietary to a camera maker. Maybe you should ask your contact specifically which file formats are accepted. If they say "RAW" then your club has the wrong person in charge of this as there's no such file format.
02-25-2014, 09:34 AM   #13
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Sounds like to me that the contest organizers are trying to avoid another Mark Joseph Solis debacle by asking for RAW files.
02-25-2014, 12:20 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by FrankC Quote
Sounds like to me that the contest organizers are trying to avoid another Mark Joseph Solis debacle by asking for RAW files.
Here are two important competition cases I know about:

Simon Butterworth became Landscape Photographer of the Year after the original winner was disqualified.

Jose Luis Rodriguez was disqualified after originally winning Wildlife Photographer of the Year.

For Interest, Simon Butterworth gave a talk at my local club a few weeks ago. He uses shift/tilt lenses a lot. Within a day of his talk, I had ordered the Samyang K-mount 24mm f/3.5 tilt/shift lens!
02-25-2014, 03:04 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
Jose Luis Rodriguez was disqualified after originally winning Wildlife Photographer of the Year.
The RAW file would not have helped here.

Photographs and/or motion pictures of captive wildlife has been the bane of wildlife photography for decades. There are several wildlife farms/parks that specialize in providing animals for motion pictures (yes, including documentaries) and still photos in a natural-looking environment. I remember watching a segment from a well-known wildlife filmmaker on public TV that was obviously filmed in a non-wild setting. You could see portions of the fence in the background (oops!). Even the prestigious National Geographic Magazine was caught up short some time ago when it published rare photos of pandas in the wild that was actually shot of captive animals in an enclosure.

If the lynx gets the rabbit, it is almost assured that it was a setup.


Steve

---------- Post added 02-25-14 at 02:18 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
Simon Butterworth became Landscape Photographer of the Year after the original winner was disqualified.
The RAW would have been diagnostic since the original winning photo was a fairly subtle composite that was uncovered by comparing light paths:

Landscape Photographer of the Year - Still Developing


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 02-25-2014 at 03:22 PM.
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