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05-07-2014, 07:11 AM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by dtmateojr Quote
He also said that cameras have very good jpeg engines and beginners should shoot in jpeg. Selective blindness?
Not at all- just that the bits about not relying on PP to fix errors seemed to be inline with much of what you're advocating, and something I definitely agree with and I'd reckon so do most of the other posters here. I just don't feel it's a reason to steer beginners away from raw, but ymmv and every individual is different and will benefit from a different learning process.

05-07-2014, 07:11 AM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by Imageman Quote
Stop replying to this fool he doesn't read anyones replies or he doesn't understand them or hes just being argumentative.

I think that's what this guy does. Im wondering how many hundreds of thousands of pale lifeless snapshots he has littering his hard drive.

I take this as a serious challenge. Show me one shot and maybe I will forget that you are just being a ****.

---------- Post added 05-08-14 at 00:16 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by BrianR Quote
Not at all- just that the bits about not relying on PP to fix errors seemed to be inline with much of what you're advocating, and something I definitely agree with and I'd reckon so do most of the other posters here. I just don't feel it's a reason to steer beginners away from raw, but ymmv and every individual is different and will benefit from a different learning process.

Exactly. My points are in agreement with his. Now since a few people here think that I'm just trolling or a fool then maybe they would listen to someone with authority. What do I get? People who label me yet could not produce a shot when asked.
05-07-2014, 07:27 AM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by dtmateojr Quote
Exactly. My points are in agreement with his. Now since a few people here think that I'm just trolling or a fool then maybe they would listen to someone with authority. What do I get? People who label me yet could not produce a shot when asked.
How you deliver a point is kinda important too. PentaxForums has more arguments than any other I've been too that involve people who mostly agree on the core details but continue to talk past, through, or over one another. I know I've been guilty of this a few times, and give myself a slap when I catch myself at it.
05-07-2014, 07:35 AM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sigmund Quote
Why post-process?
One reason, at least for me:

A quick snapshot taken just now for this thread.
Taken in RAW, spot metered on windows and normalized shadows later in PP.
My main problem was the extreme DR and trying to avoid blowing the highlights while at the same time recovering the shadows.
Maybe others can accomplish this in camera but after over 50 years in photography I sure can't.
Don't get too bent out of shape that it's not perfect I'm just trying to make a quick point.
Perhaps others can accomplish the same in camera but I sure can't.

The final image luminosity is very close to what my naked eye actually did see when I released the shutter
which was all I was trying to accomplish.


Last edited by wildman; 05-17-2014 at 05:21 AM.
05-07-2014, 07:37 AM   #95
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Why post-process?

QuoteOriginally posted by BrianR Quote
How you deliver a point is kinda important too. PentaxForums has more arguments than any other I've been too that involve people who mostly agree on the core details but continue to talk past, through, or over one another. I know I've been guilty of this a few times, and give myself a slap when I catch myself at it.

Most forums do that. A few self-proclaimed experts who preach to believers and everyone shouts "Amen!"...until somebody with completely different ideas comes in and they see him as a heretic that must be burned to death.

If everyone agrees then nobody is thinking. I forgot who said those words.

---------- Post added 05-08-14 at 00:42 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by wildman Quote
One reason, at least for me:



A quick snapshot taken just now for this thread.

Taken in RAW, spot metered on windows and normalized shadows later in PP.

My main problem was the extreme DR and trying to avoid blowing the highlights while at the same time recovering the shadows.

Maybe others can accomplish this in camera but after over 50 years in photography I sure can't.

Don't get too bent out of shape that it's not perfect I'm just trying to make a quick point.

Perhaps others can accomplish the same in camera but I sure can't.



The final image luminosity is very close to what my naked eye actually did see when I released the shutter

which was all I was trying to accomplish.

That's a very good example actually. There are different ways of approaching it. Yours is one way.
How I would approach it is quite different:

1. What's my subject?
2. Why would I need to show what's outside the window? Does it contribute to what I'm trying to show?

Try to answer those questions and check if your approach is justified.

Here's a shot with a similar theme:



And another one:



It's very easy to criticize the blown highlights in the window but really, what do you get from showing what's outside? That's not the subject and it has zero contribution to the image.

Last edited by dtmateojr; 05-07-2014 at 07:52 AM.
05-07-2014, 07:49 AM   #96
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Ok,


Lets move off confrontation and back on topic.


This thread is entitled Why post-process? not how do we teach a beginner.


Is there a reason to post process?


The answer is yes if the picture needs it.


If the question were why eat food, the answer would be because we need it, or because we are hungry, not, no you should not eat, because you might eat too much.


If the question were should we work, the answer would be because we need pay or because we need to, not, you shouldn't work because you might work too much.


In all things success and happiness in any endeavour comes with moderation not avoidance and the same is true of post processing.


I completely agree that beginners must learn control. But the attitude that they should stay away from any post processing until they learn to be responsible in post processing is a circular and a childish argument.


I am a parent and I have taught people to do things. The way to instil responsibility into someone is to give them responsibility not to remove it from them. Then they learn how to handle it.


If you want someone to learn how to handle a camera you give them a camera you don't take the camera away from them and say you cant have a camera until you can handle one, they will never learn that way.


You give them the camera and you guide them. Helping them understand what they did wrong, and praising what they did right.


With post processing its the same, what you do is, you tell them its ok to post process, then you suggest some guidelines, and you help them understand when they make the inevitable mistakes.


If you want them to take 1 week to learn post processing you let them post process and you give them free reign to commit blunders then you show them what went wrong and how to stop making those errors.


If you want then to take years over it you prevent them having access to post processing and you pontificate about it and that doesn't do them any good. you can tell someone 100 times how to do something and they wont learn, let then do it once and they learn.


They only begin to learn how to do something when they start to do it.


Guide beginners in the right way to do things don't stop them doing them
05-07-2014, 07:50 AM   #97
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^^^ Where's your shot to show us what you are preaching?
05-07-2014, 08:00 AM   #98
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As you did ask me to post something, here's an image I took some time ago.


This image is the result of post processing not "getting it right in camera" it was not possible to achieve this image in camera.


Last edited by Imageman; 07-18-2014 at 08:26 PM.
05-07-2014, 08:07 AM   #99
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Ridiculous. Sorry image man, not you.
05-07-2014, 08:08 AM   #100
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Why post-process?

QuoteOriginally posted by Imageman Quote
As you did ask me to post something, here's an image I took some time ago.


This image is the result of post processing not "getting it right in camera" it was not possible to achieve this image in camera.

What makes you think it's not possible with just a camera? Here's a more difficult light captured straight from an iphone:



And even more difficult light still with an iphone:



---------- Post added 05-08-14 at 01:11 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Bagga_Txips Quote
Ridiculous. Sorry image man, not you.

Ridiculous for those who can't shoot.
05-07-2014, 08:34 AM   #101
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I don't believe you can see what I did in that image, im actually pleased that you don't see it.


Does anyone else have an opinion on the image I posted, If so what is it.


Sorry to hijack the thread but this goes to establish credibility


Opinions in the context of could my image be produced in camera.
05-07-2014, 08:54 AM   #102
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Imageman, you are wasting your time, the guy is just enjoying the confrontation. So are you, I suspect. Why don,t you two take the argument to pms?

None of this is contributing to the original intention of the thread.
05-07-2014, 09:03 AM   #103
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Post processing can let you move from this:



To this:



I had tried some brighter exposures with this particular photo, but they didn't capture the sun's rays very well and obviously the darker photo ended up really dark. No way to get this sort of photo "right" in camera.
05-07-2014, 11:11 AM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by dtmateojr Quote
It's very easy to criticize the blown highlights in the window but really, what do you get from showing what's outside? That's not the subject and it has zero contribution to the image.
I think you miss the point of my post and, for that matter, the OP's original question:

It's not one of personal esthetics as to blow the highlights or not in an extreme DR situation but, rather, if you do want to avoid this what's the better technique - in camera or PP?
I gave you my answer.
05-07-2014, 11:13 AM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bagga_Txips Quote
Imageman, you are wasting your time, the guy is just enjoying the confrontation. So are you, I suspect. Why don,t you two take the argument to pms?

None of this is contributing to the original intention of the thread.
+1. You and I don't understand the one true way to correctly do photography.
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