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09-24-2014, 06:29 AM   #16
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As I understand it:
The AF360FGZ will only work in the older TTL mode when it is on a camera that is fitted with the power electronic flash quench circuitry.
The ist d series ( d, dl, ds) cameras were the only Pentax dslrs that had this quench module, and they also had the modern P_TTL function.
Also, the TTL mode will only be enabled when a -M lens is on the camera. ( or -A lens with aperture ring off A)
If a DA lens is on an ist d camera, it will revert to P_TTL, and TTL mode is not available.

A further complication is that the AF360 display after power on will show P_TTL mode up until the shutter button is partially depressed.
Then, only if a -M lens is on, and only if iso 200 is selected, the AF360 display will show TTL and the TTL mode will work.

If you can get past all the above obstacles, the TTL mode works rather well, allowing a blending of ambient light in the exposure.

I have another Pentax TTL mode flash (AF080C ring flash) and it also will only control with iso 200 setting.

09-24-2014, 07:13 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by wombat2go Quote
A further complication is that the AF360 display after power on will show P_TTL mode up until the shutter button is partially depressed.
Then, only if a -M lens is on, and only if iso 200 is selected, the AF360 display will show TTL and the TTL mode will work.
I heard that you also had to touch your nose with the left hand, while facing west just after a new moon, shouting TTL three times for the display to show TTL...

But my source may be wrong

It could be while facing east
09-24-2014, 08:41 AM - 1 Like   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by fgaudet Quote
I heard that you also had to touch your nose with the left hand, while facing west just after a new moon, shouting TTL three times for the display to show TTL...

But my source may be wrong

It could be while facing east
Welcome to the world of flash compatibility.

To summarize for the OP:
  • Your flash supports P-TTL, Auto, and Manual modes on your K-5
    • Mount the flash to camera
    • Turn camera on
    • Turn flash on
    • The flash should automatically sense the camera when it is ready and go into P-TTL mode by default, if not, press the mode button until you get to the mode you want.
  • Your flash supports Auto (auto-thyristor) and Manual with your K1000
  • The manual is your friend and the version available from Ricoh Imaging is fairly up to date and applies to all current Pentax dSLR cameras.
  • The main confusion is between terms (TTL vs P-TTL):
    • TTL measures off the film/sensor at exposure time. TTL flash metering is limited to various film camera models and the *ist D several 1st and 2nd generation dSLR models. Your K-5 does not support TTL mode. Neither does the K1000.
    • P-TTL uses a pre-flash to determine appropriate exposure and is the standard for all current Pentax dSLR
  • No mode will work if your batteries are low or unable to charge the flash. Alkaline, NiMH, and Lithium (FR-6) should all work.
One thing that I did not see in the comments was any discussion of the Auto mode. That mode uses a sensor on the flash itself and is hugely useful and worth learning how to use. In P or Tv modes operation should be essentially seamless. P-TTL has its nice points and is much more flexible, but Auto will almost always provide an appropriate exposure.


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 09-24-2014 at 03:18 PM.
09-24-2014, 01:20 PM   #19
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According to Ricoh pentax site, the AF 360 FGZ is like the AF 540 FGZ. It supports both P-TTL and TTL, so here's the catch. First you need a TTL capable body. In DSLRs that limits you to bodies up to the *istDS2 I believe. I have an *istD myself.

Next for the body to work in TTL mode you need a lens that is NOT in the A position, or a flash that only supports TTL. My *istD will shoot TTL with the TTL flash from I PZ1(an AF 500 FTz) with any lens attached since the flash can only work inTTl.

With the AF 540 FGZ, the *istD will shoot TTL if the lens is manual aperture (not in A position) or M42, but shots P-TTL for any KA or later lens in the A position

09-24-2014, 03:10 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
According to Ricoh pentax site, the AF 360 FGZ is like the AF 540 FGZ. It supports both P-TTL and TTL, so here's the catch. First you need a TTL capable body. In DSLRs that limits you to bodies up to the *istDS2 I believe. I have an *istD myself.

Next for the body to work in TTL mode you need a lens that is NOT in the A position, or a flash that only supports TTL. My *istD will shoot TTL with the TTL flash from I PZ1(an AF 500 FTz) with any lens attached since the flash can only work inTTl.

With the AF 540 FGZ, the *istD will shoot TTL if the lens is manual aperture (not in A position) or M42, but shots P-TTL for any KA or later lens in the A position
This is a highly complex picture even beyond what you have shared. According to the flash manual, the mode will switch to TTL for a wide range of bodies if an "A" contact lens is not detected. From the manual:
QuoteQuote:
With the K20D, K200D, K100D Super, K10D, K110D, K100D, *ist DS2, *ist DS, and *ist D, if the aperture of the lens is in a position other than A, the flash mode will switch to TTL.
This was a huge surprise to me and while it does not impact the OP, I am very amazed that this option was present on my K10D and I didn't even know it. But wait! It get stranger! With the LX, Super Program, and 645 bodies (all using the analog TTL protocol) if the flash mode is P-TTL, TTL is used regardless of aperture ring position (TTL mode with those cameras has no special notes).


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 09-24-2014 at 03:15 PM.
09-24-2014, 04:54 PM   #21
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Good evening, Lowell and Steve,
Looking at the vintage flash units here:
(looking DOWN at the Camera body)

The AF16 ( Auto or M mode) only has the centre pin.
The AF160 ( Auto or M mode, I see maybe came at ME Super time) has the lower left pin for "Flash Ready" page 28 of ME Super manual

The AF080C (TTL mode, i don't know date) has both the lower left and lower right pins.

The AF160Sa ( version here has German/Espanol text) has both the lower left and lower right pins with text for use on "A" lenses from 0.5 to 4 metre " In PROGRAM" .
Was the AF160Sa flash a TTL flash?
Thanks
09-24-2014, 09:57 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
This is a highly complex picture even beyond what you have shared. According to the flash manual, the mode will switch to TTL for a wide range of bodies if an "A" contact lens is not detected. From the manual:

This was a huge surprise to me and while it does not impact the OP, I am very amazed that this option was present on my K10D and I didn't even know it. But wait! It get stranger! With the LX, Super Program, and 645 bodies (all using the analog TTL protocol) if the flash mode is P-TTL, TTL is used regardless of aperture ring position (TTL mode with those cameras has no special notes).


Steve
While the flash may say TTL, it is the body that supports the flash mode not the flash. So the issue is that only the early *istD bodies had thenTTL sensors. If you are on a later body, which does not support TTL the flash fires at full power.
09-25-2014, 04:39 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
While the flash may say TTL, it is the body that supports the flash mode not the flash. So the issue is that only the early *istD bodies had thenTTL sensors. If you are on a later body, which does not support TTL the flash fires at full power.
So the flash manual is in error (very possible)? I understand that the body must support TTL (duh), what surprised me is that the list of cameras in the AF-360 FGZ manual is more extensive than what I had read in the past. I would be interested in whether the second generation bodies really do support TTL with some lenses. What I am discovering is that there are "Easter Egg" (undocumented or poorly documented) features related to legacy flash support* and this may be yet another.


Steve

* A good example would be the support for the "auto" analog protocol with flashes such as the AF-280T. Pentax dSLRs fully support that mode (auto-thyristor with auto setting of aperture) as an undocumented feature on legacy flashes that have it.


Last edited by stevebrot; 09-25-2014 at 05:05 AM.
09-25-2014, 01:20 PM - 1 Like   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
So the flash manual is in error (very possible)? I understand that the body must support TTL (duh), what surprised me is that the list of cameras in the AF-360 FGZ manual is more extensive than what I had read in the past. I would be interested in whether the second generation bodies really do support TTL with some lenses. What I am discovering is that there are "Easter Egg" (undocumented or poorly documented) features related to legacy flash support* and this may be yet another.
One thing I can confirm is the AF540FGZ (the 360's big brother) shows TTL on the K5 and K7 when a lens is not in A but does not work. It fires full power the same way my AF500FTZ (from mybPZ1) does.

Showing TTL , I.e. Recognizing this should be the flash mode for non A lenses is quire different from actually working
09-25-2014, 02:09 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
Next for the body to work in TTL mode you need a lens that is NOT in the A position, or a flash that only supports TTL. My *istD will shoot TTL with the TTL flash from I PZ1(an AF 500 FTz) with any lens attached since the flash can only work inTTl.
Funny you should mention that :P I am just waiting for one roll to be developed that I shoot with Pentax Z1p and my AF360FGZ flash ( in TTL mode). I have used an AF lens ( with aperture in A ) setting , preselected from body for AV mode. I have never used this flash combined with Z1p before, but that was the need and so I did id. So what you were essentially saying means that I should have selected the aperture on the lens by hand instead of keeping it in 'A' position for TTL to work ? Does that mean that I just lost a roll shot that I cannot repeat ? ( I guess I'll find out soon enough - expecting my roll to be ready tomorrow or Saturday).
09-25-2014, 09:54 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by manntax Quote
Funny you should mention that :P I am just waiting for one roll to be developed that I shoot with Pentax Z1p and my AF360FGZ flash ( in TTL mode). I have used an AF lens ( with aperture in A ) setting , preselected from body for AV mode. I have never used this flash combined with Z1p before, but that was the need and so I did id. So what you were essentially saying means that I should have selected the aperture on the lens by hand instead of keeping it in 'A' position for TTL to work ? Does that mean that I just lost a roll shot that I cannot repeat ? ( I guess I'll find out soon enough - expecting my roll to be ready tomorrow or Saturday).
No, for the PZ1, as it only supports TTL, the camera will force the flash to work in TTL, but you have auto aperture through the body. My discussion was really oriented about the *istD series of bodies, which support both TTL and P-TTL. In cases where a camera supports both, it will use the most advanced technology.

I believe pentax supported both modes in the *istD series bodies to maximize the compatibility to draw as many legacy shooters out as they could. The *istD has the most advanced flash of any pentax DSLR camera. It also supports wireless HSS using the body flash. All other DSLRs need a shoe mounted flash as well to do HSS wireless.
09-25-2014, 11:39 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
No, for the PZ1, as it only supports TTL, the camera will force the flash to work in TTL, but you have auto aperture through the body. My discussion was really oriented about the *istD series of bodies, which support both TTL and P-TTL. In cases where a camera supports both, it will use the most advanced technology.
I believe pentax supported both modes in the *istD series bodies to maximize the compatibility to draw as many legacy shooters out as they could. The *istD has the most advanced flash of any pentax DSLR camera. It also supports wireless HSS using the body flash. All other DSLRs need a shoe mounted flash as well to do HSS wireless.
That was my original understanding and I used this camera with other TTL-only flashes always with good results. It clearly makes sense in order to force the body that recognizes both TTL and P-TTL that one needs to set the aperture manually to explicitly work in TTL.

Thanks for clarifying that !
09-26-2014, 10:07 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
I believe pentax supported both modes in the *istD series bodies to maximize the compatibility to draw as many legacy shooters out as they could. The *istD has the most advanced flash of any pentax DSLR camera. It also supports wireless HSS using the body flash. All other DSLRs need a shoe mounted flash as well to do HSS wireless.
You are probably correct on both points. The matter of legacy support of the installed user base is important. When the *ist D (AF-360 FGZ too) came out there was a complicated mix of flash technologies both in the stores and as an installed user base. They included:
  • Simple analog dedicated*
  • Analog auto (sensor on flash)**
  • Analog TTL (Super Program, LX and similar)**
  • Digital TTL***
  • P-TTL***
* Two pin hot shoe (fire, ready)
** Three pin hot shoe (fire, ready, mode)
*** Four pin hot shoe (fire, ready, mode, data/digital)

I am not sure, but I believe your *istD supports all of the above. Are you able to use flashes such as AF-280T in TTL mode?


Steve
09-29-2014, 07:35 AM   #29
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"..." Why would you want plain old TTL..." Because I shoot a lot of film and might get my hands on a Pentax 67 or 645. If the flash is not functioning correctly then I want one that will.

So the conclusion seems to be, the flash will only go into TTL mode when mounted on a camera which supports TTL mode, and cannot be tricked into this mode an other way.
09-30-2014, 03:58 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by burnt umber Quote
"..." Why would you want plain old TTL..." Because I shoot a lot of film and might get my hands on a Pentax 67 or 645. If the flash is not functioning correctly then I want one that will.

So the conclusion seems to be, the flash will only go into TTL mode when mounted on a camera which supports TTL mode, and cannot be tricked into this mode an other way.
That is correct. It is the body that supports TTL vs PTTL. There is no trick to make it work, because the sensor to control TTL is in the camera body.

---------- Post added 09-30-2014 at 07:02 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
You are probably correct on both points. The matter of legacy support of the installed user base is important. When the *ist D (AF-360 FGZ too) came out there was a complicated mix of flash technologies both in the stores and as an installed user base. They included:
  • Simple analog dedicated*
  • Analog auto (sensor on flash)**
  • Analog TTL (Super Program, LX and similar)**
  • Digital TTL***
  • P-TTL***
* Two pin hot shoe (fire, ready)
** Three pin hot shoe (fire, ready, mode)
*** Four pin hot shoe (fire, ready, mode, data/digital)

I am not sure, but I believe your *istD supports all of the above. Are you able to use flashes such as AF-280T in TTL mode?


Steve
While the technologies were out there, many of them for years, the 4 pin hotshoe had been around already for almost 15 years. My PZ1 had it in 1991. That's when I also bought the AF500FTZ that I use.
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