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09-27-2014, 08:25 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Can you post a single example photograph, preferably an in-camera JPEG with no PP and all exif intact? Steve
QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Show us exactly what you are attempting to photograph, and how you are trying to do it.

Ok , hi is probably not going to unpack the flash again so I will continue this thread as the results I am getting are exactly what he was saying.

Using the following setup ( K-01 + SMC-F 100mm F2.8 + AF160FC ring flash ) :


And these setting ( verifable from the image below - exif is intact ) Manual mode, 1/180, ISO 100, F8, Flash on AUTO - I get this result ( straight from the camera ): - YES there IS an image, but it is BLANK - completely overexposed !
K-01 file exif metadata link


And with K10D , using the following setup :


I get this result - settings are exactly as above , exif intact.
LINK TO EXIF : K10D exif metadata link


NOTE ! I do know that the image is slightly overexposed - the subject is reflective and shot is better with F11 - but I didn't want to go back to a K-01 shot and so I kept F8 across both testing shots. Normally I would never do a shoot like this one but this is to illustrate the problem. One can clearly see that apart from minor overexposure , the shot from K10D is basically fine.

---------- Post added 09-27-14 at 04:38 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
It occurred to me yesterday and just now when reading this comment that there might be more than one production variant of the AF-160FC in the mix. The flash has been in production for a few years now and may well have gone through a few changes.
Could be - still irrelevant and the flash should either work or be updated at no cost if they had changed the specification ( which I don't think is the case ). More likely the K-01 and K-5 and K-3 can have a problem, where K10D clearly has not and also as Digitalis is showing us - the K7, K5IIs can also be fine. Not sure where to go any further from this. I will wait for Ricoh to answer my question. EDIT: Possible cause is that my unit was made in China , where Digitalis one is made in Japan.

QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Mine is one of the early AF160FC units - made in japan, the serial number on it is in the hundreds.
Mine is MADE IN CHINA !! and serial number is 2xxx - could that be that this is the culprit ?


Last edited by manntax; 09-27-2014 at 09:38 AM.
09-27-2014, 08:47 AM   #32
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And you are having the same degree of overexposure on the K5 and K3 as seen on the K-01?

QuoteOriginally posted by manntax Quote
More likely the K-01 and K-5 and K-3 can have a problem, where K10D clearly has not and also as Digitalis is showing us - the K7, K5IIs can also be fine.
That can't be right, the K5 and K3 have a problem and the K5IIs doesn't, that doesn't make sense. Personally, I would be using an aperture of f/11 with this kind of reflective subject as well as some negative exposure compensation. But it is clear that no amount of exposure compensation will rein the exposure on the K-01 in.

Looking at the serial number on your flash unit - your AF160FC is much more recent than mine is, I bought mine in 2010. Stevebrot and his idea there might have been a hardware revision that may be interfereing with its operation is plausible.

Last edited by Digitalis; 09-27-2014 at 09:00 AM.
09-27-2014, 09:13 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
And you are having the same degree of overexposure on the K5 and K3 as seen on the K-01?
That was probably already answered by the OP

QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Originally posted by manntax Quote More likely the K-01 and K-5 and K-3 can have a problem, where K10D clearly has not and also as Digitalis is showing us - the K7, K5IIs can also be fine. That can't be right, the K5 and K3 have a problem and the K5IIs doesn't, that doesn't make sense.
And does it make sense that K10D produces ok shot where K-01 clearly produces an empty, blank image ? Your reasoning isn't consistent in this case am afraid.

QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Personally, I would be using an aperture of f/11 with this kind of reflective subject as well as some negative exposure compensation.
Of course - I have already explained in NOTE section - nonetheless K10D is doing just fine (nearly)

QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Looking at the serial number on your flash unit - your AF160FC is much more recent than mine is, I bought mine in 2010. Stevebrot and his idea there might have been a hardware revision that may be interfereing with its operation is plausible.
Seems so. I bought mine back in 2012 or thereabouts.
It is still possible that your unit would produce the same overexposure with K-01 , K5 or K3 - as long as you haven't tried this flash on one of those cameras - you cannot be sure.
The fact that mine K10D is doing just fine with the same flash where K-01 is simple blowing all - only proves my case. You tested your flash with either the camera that in my case also works ( the K10D ) or with the cameras that neither the OP nor I have or used.
09-27-2014, 09:17 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by manntax Quote
as long as you haven't tried this flash on one of those cameras - you cannot be sure
My K3 is in the studio - I won't be back there until Monday, and even then I won't be able to do any tests until my shoots are all wrapped up by 7PM. I will however be using a 645D
(and Z) so I might try to sneak in a few AF160 FC shots in there (and that might give me a flimsy pretext to use my HD-DFA 90mm f/2.8 ED WR SR macro lens.)

09-27-2014, 09:21 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by manntax Quote
Quote Originally posted by stevebrot Quote
Can you post a single example photograph, preferably an in-camera JPEG with no PP and all exif intact? Steve
Quote Originally posted by Digitalis Quote
Show us exactly what you are attempting to photograph, and how you are trying to do it.

Ok , hi is probably not going to unpack the flash again so I will continue this thread as the results I am getting are exactly what he was saying.
I guess we will never know just what the OP was doing that allowed him to make sweeping statements. Of course, it may well be that he just wanted to rant.


Steve
09-27-2014, 09:22 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
My K3 is in the studio - I won't be back there until Monday, and even then I won't be able to do any tests until my shoots are all wrapped up by 7PM. I will however be using a 645D (and Z) so I might try to sneak in a few AF160 FC shots in there (and that might give me a flimsy pretext to use my 90mm f/2.8 HD-DFA macro lens.)
That would be fantastic - especially if K3 will work with your flash and if the unit that OP had was also made in China - that would at least be something hinting the possible problem with compatibility of China made modes with newer cameras. Thanks in advance !

---------- Post added 09-27-14 at 05:35 PM ----------

Just so we clear this - here is a shot with the same K-01 and AF360FGZ flash OFF camera in P-TTL mode ( on P-TTL cable ) - held roughly in the same distance as the ring flash would be. The exposure is actually excellent - looks like this flash has broader range of max and min light output. ( i know the shot is not in focus - was done handheld and I cared only for the framing at the same distances as previous shots were done) Link to exif : K-01 + AF360FGZ off camera in P-TTL mode + SMC-F 100mm f2.8 macro

It clearly proves that my K-01 is capable of great shots with P-TTL flash, and so my ring flash is either faulty ( manufacturing fault ) or is not properly communicated with from K-01 side ( more probably , since K10D does great with it ).


Last edited by manntax; 09-27-2014 at 09:37 AM.
09-27-2014, 10:42 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by manntax Quote
or is not properly communicated with from K-01 side ( more probably , since K10D does great with it ).
The two cameras definitely treat P-TTL differently. This is evident from the maker section of the exif. How that translates to the instructions sent to the flash is anyone's guess. Unfortunately the exif is of little use here, at least as far as ExifTool and its ability to decode the maker section.

My understanding is that if the body detects a P-TTL flash, its behavior is the same regardless of what flash is mounted and what mode that flash is in. In other words, it always sends the signal for preflash and always sends the meter data. Whether the data is different for different flashes is unclear. What is likely is that the flash may default to full power if it receives ambiguous or invalid or unknown or out-of-range instructions. A bug in the flash or camera firmware might result in such.


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 09-27-2014 at 10:48 AM.
09-27-2014, 11:24 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
The two cameras definitely treat P-TTL differently. This is evident from the maker section of the exif. How that translates to the instructions sent to the flash is anyone's guess. Unfortunately the exif is of little use here, at least as far as ExifTool and its ability to decode the maker section. My understanding is that if the body detects a P-TTL flash, its behavior is the same regardless of what flash is mounted and what mode that flash is in. In other words, it always sends the signal for preflash and always sends the meter data. Whether the data is different for different flashes is unclear. What is likely is that the flash may default to full power if it receives ambiguous or invalid or unknown or out-of-range instructions. A bug in the flash or camera firmware might result in such. Steve
What is the best way to make Ricoh aware of such issues ? This ring flash is very unpopular ( judging by scarce reviews and on-line materials ) - probably due to the price, so that issues like these can go unnoticed for years. I am to be blamed partially for that - admit that. But I ignored problem with K-01 due to more serious matters and then simple stopped doing as much macro as I hoped for, and when I did - I usually used ring flash in manual mode anyway. Also I though that this might have be K-01 only - now I see that possible all other cameras would suffer from permanent overexposure in P-TTL auto mode.

Do you have any suggestion of possible next move ?

09-27-2014, 12:22 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by manntax Quote
What is the best way to make Ricoh aware of such issues ?
They have a Web form on the support section of the Ricoh Imaging Web site. I have used it in the past and they have been responsive.

Ricoh Imaging Support

As for the OP's report of issues with the K-3 and K-5, it may well be that his flash is defective. It is difficult from the exchange on this thread to determine what was going on. To be honest, some of it makes very little sense. I am talking specifically about using it in manual mode with the A 200/2.8 on the K-3 at f/25, ISO 100 and the flash at lowest (1/16) output and still having trouble getting proper exposure (LINK). For those settings the guide number would have been 4 meters and at minimum focus distance for that lens (0.55m) the appropriate aperture should have been about f/8. Something is fishy.


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 09-27-2014 at 01:07 PM.
09-27-2014, 12:39 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
They have a Web form on the support section of the Ricoh Imaging Web site. I have used it in the past and they have been responsive. Ricoh Imaging Support Steve
Thanks a ton! I already contacted Ricoh UK via email over a week ago about separate issue (query about possible service for my Z1p ) - no reply so far, so I am going go ahead and contact them via form provided .
09-27-2014, 01:48 PM   #41
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So Far So Good.



100% crop from an out of focus area.

The Manual says that the camera should be set to other than manual but then the 180 shutter is impossible. I believe that the manual is wrong on this point.

09-27-2014, 01:53 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by aoeu Quote
So Far So Good.
Can you upload via 'manage attachments' rather than flickr please ? What camera was it ? was the flash on AUTO ? what lens was it ? What was the distance between the subject and the flash ring ? Is your flash ring made in JAPAN or CHINA ? What is range of serial number ?

All these are important, otherwise your post is quite meaningless in the context of problem. Having your images with EXIF ( not edited, but straight out of the camera , as JPG) will help a lot.

Thanks a ton !
09-27-2014, 02:10 PM   #43
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Flash set to auto.

K5

FA 100 Macro

China
09-27-2014, 02:17 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by aoeu Quote
Flash set to auto. K5 FA 100 Macro China
well that doesn't help really. Can you please try take a photo of something small , going down to 1:1 with your lens and flash on it. Set the camera to Manual, shutter to 1/180 and aperture to F11 with ISO manually set to 100. Flash on AUTO. Take one photo in JPG , and then upload via 'Manage attachements' button below ?

If you do exactly what I mentioned, you will be of really great help to me and other users affected by this issue.

Thanks!
09-27-2014, 08:16 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by manntax Quote
is not properly communicated with from K-01 side ( more probably , since K10D does great with it ).
I agree, I have used the AF160FC ringflash on the K10D, 645D, K7,K5IIs, and K3 without issue. I don't own a K-01, but it sounds like something is interfering with P-TTL operation with this particular flash unit. But at least you can use the ring flash manually ( which is what I do normally anyway)
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