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09-28-2014, 01:44 PM   #61
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Here are ten test shots done at 24 inches, "X," ISO 100. Paddington is about 2.5 inches (6.25 cm) tall and is standing upon and leaning against two Kodak neutral gray cards.

1) First three images with DA f2.4 70mm, with +1 close-up lens; exposures at f4; then f8; then f16.

2) Next three images with SMCA 50mm f2.8 macro, exposures at f4; then f8; then f16.

3) Last four images with SMCA ED 200mm f4 macro, exposures at f4; then f8; then f16; then f32.

For the two "A" series lenses, f16 is close to the correct exposure, perhaps slightly overexposed.

Because the exposure varies with f-stop, it is clear that PTTL IS NOT WORKING. The flash is triggering at FULL all the time.

I noticed that in the EXIF data, both "A" lenses are recorded as "120mm" (180mm on 35mm).


Last edited by WPRESTO; 10-29-2014 at 04:47 AM.
09-28-2014, 01:58 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by WPRESTO Quote
Here are ten test shots done at 24 inches, "X," ISO 100. Paddington is about 2.5 inches (6.25 cm) tall and is standing upon and leaning against two Kodak neutral gray cards. 1) First three images with DA f2.4 70mm, with +1 close-up lens; exposures at f4; then f8; then f16. 2) Next three images with SMCA 50mm f2.8 macro, exposures at f4; then f8; then f16. 3) Last four images with SMVA ED 200mm f4 macro, exposures at f4; then f8; then f16; then f32. For the two "A" series lenses, f16 is close to the correct exposure, perhaps slightly overexposed. Because the exposure varies with f-stop, it is clear that PTTL IS NOT WORKING. The flash is triggering at FULL all the time. I noticed that in the EXIF data, both "A" lenses are recorded as "120mm" (180mm on 35mm).
Thanks a lot ! A very valuable contribution to help resolve this problem ! I took out my own flash and tried it with DA lens ( kit lens ) on my K-01 - no luck, the same full overexposing. I agree that flash is firing at full power in close distances - at around 1m + distances I get ok exposure with K-01.
09-28-2014, 02:02 PM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by manntax Quote
No need to mock .. there are only 2 documented cases ( one unit made in Japan, one of unknown origin) and one statement with no data to support.
Sorry...I was only counting the ones on this thread with photos and exif intact where the P-TTL obviously worked in the macro range:
  • Yours on the K10D
  • iamtheguy with K-5
  • Digitalis with K-5 IIs
There are others scattered on this site and on the Web.

As for mocking...self mocking only. Apparently my standards for documentation are too low. Good luck with Ricoh and getting them to craft a firmware upgrade for your K-01 to address this problem. Good luck to the OP as well. I am glad you got your RMA and you are not out the money for a flash that will not work for you. It would have been nice to have seen at least one of your test shots as well Thank you for the test shots (you posted as I was composing). It would have been nice to see a second effort in manual mode, but you only do what you can do.

I love a good puzzle, but enough is enough. I am outa here, adios!


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 09-28-2014 at 02:07 PM.
09-28-2014, 02:18 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Yours on the K10D
How is mine K10D woking OK with this flash - proving anything apart from the fact that either flash or K-01 has a fault and is simple not working ??

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Apparently my standards for documentation are too low.
Definitely too low.. or at least not consistent reasoning.. a case where the same flash is working with one camera is qualified for you as something that supposed to 'out-weight' the fact that the very flash is not working with another camera .. especially if that camera is working with other in P-TTL just fine.. huh ?

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I love a good puzzle, but enough is enough. I am outa here, adios!
bye bye - you were not helping really.

09-28-2014, 05:17 PM   #65
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The thing that bugs me is that the internals of the K5IIs are basically identical to the K5 and I'm using frigging extension tubes on a A series 50mm f/1.7 lens with P-TTL on the AF160FC without issue. You guys can't get a decent PTTL exposure with an A series lens directly mounted on your cameras. If the flash is firing at full power all the time there has to be a communication issue some where in the P-TTL loop and since neither of you are using extension tubes* Clean the flash contacts, clean the lens contacts on both the camera and the lenses and try again. Also it would pay to check the pins on the flash units and make sure they are making proper contact with the hotshoe.

QuoteOriginally posted by WPRESTO Quote
I noticed that in the EXIF data, both "A" lenses are recorded as "120mm" (180mm on 35mm).
OK that is bizarre - my SMCP-A* 200mm f/4 ED Macro nearly always reports focal length correctly, unless i'm using it manually.


*which cause 90% of flash exposure problems in most camera systems.

Last edited by Digitalis; 09-28-2014 at 05:24 PM.
09-28-2014, 06:44 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
OK that is bizarre - my SMCP-A* 200mm f/4 ED Macro nearly always reports focal length correctly, unless i'm using it manually.
I said I would refrain from additional comments, but now you all have got me seriously spooked. Are your "A" series lenses special in that they are able to transmit the focal length to the body? Mine lack the data contact to support that feature. What I input when the camera boots is what ends up in the exif.


Steve
09-28-2014, 07:08 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
What I input when the camera boots is what ends up in the exif.
probably because I manually set my cameras to 200mm when the input focal length menu appears*. The A* 200mm f/4 ED macro is one of three A series Lenses I work with: The SMCP-A 50mm f/1.7, SMCP-A* 85mm f/1.4 and SMCP-A* 200mm f/4 ED MACRO ( I'm hoping to get a SMCP-A* 135mm f/1.8 in the future)


*Or I have it set to the correct FL in the user mode dedicated for the lens, I hate incorrect EXIF information.
09-28-2014, 08:22 PM   #68
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The issue of inserting focal length only arises if you have vibration reduction engaged. Because I'm working on a tripod when doing macro even in the field, the vibration reduction is always off as recommended in all three camera manuals, so the enter focal length never appears on the screen. Also, if the contacts are being troublesome, it cannot be the flash contacts because all three flashes work properly on the K20, and it cannot be the hotshoe contacts on the K5 and K3 because when I take off an "A" series lens and mount a DA series lens, or DA to "A," without touching the flash in the hot shoe, the "A" series does not provide PTTL and the DA does provide PTTL. I have not checked the firmware in the K5, but the firmware in the K3 is V1.03, which is the most recent. The fact that I get proper PTTL with all three flash units on both the K5 and K3 when a DA lens is attached means the contacts are all correct.


Last edited by WPRESTO; 09-29-2014 at 07:25 AM.
09-28-2014, 11:49 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Clean the flash contacts, clean the lens contacts on both the camera and the lenses and try again. Also it would pay to check the pins on the flash units and make sure they are making proper contact with the hotshoe.
all check and done many times - flash works with K10D and doesn't with K-01 - it is simple as that. besides, similar to WPRESTO I get perfectly fine exposure - ALSO IN MACRO DISTANCES - with my AF360FGZ ( used on P-TTL cable ) - with both cameras.
09-29-2014, 11:18 AM   #70
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Let's see how long will take them to process this case...

QuoteOriginally posted by Ricoh:
Dear Mr.... Thank you for contacting Ricoh Imaging.Herewith we inform you that your case has been escalated. We will contact you as soon as the answer is available. If you are in need of further assistance, please respond to this email or call our technical support center. Sincerely, Ricoh Imaging Technical Support
10-31-2014, 05:24 PM   #71
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Just wanted to make a small update to the whole issue.

First and foremost this flash SHOULD ( and in normal case IS) supporting full P-TTL with 'A' lenses - this is expected behaviour. So mine own and WPRESTO experiences are only because there probably was a faulty batch of either flashes or cameras or both that in certain flash-camera configurations is simple not working in PTTL in close up distances.

I was contacted yesterday by Pentax representative ( He called which was a nice surprise and a change in our foregoing communication via email). During about 10 minutes conversation I was asked several question about the nature of this problem, then I was assured that the problem is real, because there should be NO compatibility issues with the AF160FC flash - so these two already comforted me a lot. And finally I was asked to provide series of test shots , taken at macro and portrait distances with both my cameras and said flash. I have fulfilled that request today and hopefully I will see some progress on this issue soon.

I am very satisfied that Ricoh (Pentax) have contacted me and personally was offered assistance ( they called from Netherlands, judging by the phone number I got on my phone's screen ) and that they've acknowledged the issue and offered further investigation. Fingers crossed ...


QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Originally posted by WPRESTO Quote The flash compatibility chart in both the K5 and K3 manuals indicate that PTTL will function with an A-series lens if the aperture ring is locked at "A." FALSE. Neither camera provides PTTL with a capable flash and an A-series lens. Respectfully, must say I disagree. My own testing with an A series* lens proves that the AF160FC can indeed work very well in P-TTL mode with an A series lens. * Lenses tested - SMCP-A 50mm f/1.7 and SMCP-A*200mm f/4 ED MACRO.
QuoteOriginally posted by WPRESTO Quote
But - Which camera body? My tests with three Pentax bodies indicates PTTL does work and a K20D + PTTL capable flash + any A-series lens tried; but NO PTTL with any combination flash + A-series lens on either a K5 or K3. Also, Ricoh-Pentax in personal communication stated that the AF360 WILL NOT provide PTTL with any A-series lens despite that fact that the flash compatibility chart in both K5 & K3 instruction manuals indicate that it will. BTW: It was my impression that the technician at Ricoh-Pentax simply looked up the lens-function chart that comes with the AF360 flash, and that chart does not indicate PTTL function with an A-series lens. You & I have been through this discussion, but you are using a K5II, and there is the possibility that there is something different in the firmware. I no longer have the AF360, but I will experiment again with both bodies, different A-series lenses and the several PTTL capable flash units I have.
11-26-2014, 11:56 AM   #72
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3 weeks later I got the reply from Ricoh - can somebody help me understand what's written below ? I get the beginning but when they start on saying that their tests show that 3 cameras have 3 different output with the same flash and yet it is normal - I admit I lost it. To me it is utter nonsense and I cannot believe that they would seriously want me to buy that :

in the same P-TTL mode , distance to the subject and settings on the camera
1)
gross overexposure with K-01
2) 'slight' underexposure with K10D
3) good exposure with K3 -

That all would be normal and according to Ricoh it is EXACTLY what I should expect from this flash. That flash is somehow 'magically' switching off the P-TTL mode and doing all manual - all depends on the conditions and variables ( which by the way, are exactly the same for each camera - mind you!)

Here is their full response - please somebody tell me this isn't real, or that I got this all wrong ...

QuoteOriginally posted by Ricoh Imaging Technical Support:
Dear Mr ..., Thank you for contacting Ricoh Imaging.We ran some tests with the K-01 (FW v1.05), K10D (v1.31) and K-3 (v1.11), using the same settings as you did. At closer distance, about 15 cm, pictures are over exposed with K-01, under exposed (but acceptable) with K10D and very good exposed with K-3.At 1m ,exposure with K-01 is good, over exposed with K10D and good on K-3. In the AF160Fc Operating manual, it is stated on page 24 as follows : "P-TTL-auto and TTL-auto switch automatically depending on the camera and lens settings." After checking the Exif datas of your pictures, only 'K-10D_1m_distance' has the 'mode flash P-TTL' noted in data. This could mean, the condition above is confirmed.The measure depend on the subject, light condition, distance, camera's setting (ISO, aperture, etc...) many parameters could interfered the result. Even though the Auto mode is set, you migth want to run some tests. You can adjust the flash output ratio, as it is recommended in the Operating manual. ...

Last edited by manntax; 11-26-2014 at 01:22 PM.
11-26-2014, 01:42 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by manntax Quote
3 weeks later I got the reply from Ricoh - can somebody help me understand what's written below ? I get the beginning but when they start on saying that their tests show that 3 cameras have 3 different output with the same flash and yet it is normal - I admit I lost it. To me it is utter nonsense and I cannot believe that they would seriously want me to buy that :

in the same P-TTL mode , distance to the subject and settings on the camera
1)
gross overexposure with K-01
2) 'slight' underexposure with K10D
3) good exposure with K3 -

That all would be normal and according to Ricoh it is EXACTLY what I should expect from this flash. That flash is somehow 'magically' switching off the P-TTL mode and doing all manual - all depends on the conditions and variables ( which by the way, are exactly the same for each camera - mind you!)

Here is their full response - please somebody tell me this isn't real, or that I got this all wrong ...




TRANSLATION: Everything is functioning normally. There are many variables and you have not allowed or corrected for all of them. The instruction manual is entirely correct, explains it all, but you haven't read it with sufficient care so go and do it. Even though the flash is supposed to work on PTTL automatically on all three cameras, it might not depending on the variables that are explained in the manual that you have not read with sufficient care. Everything about the manual, all Pentax equipment, and this response is perfect.
11-26-2014, 02:34 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by WPRESTO Quote
TRANSLATION: Everything is functioning normally. There are many variables and you have not allowed or corrected for all of them. The instruction manual is entirely correct, explains it all, but you haven't read it with sufficient care so go and do it. Even though the flash is supposed to work on PTTL automatically on all three cameras, it might not depending on the variables that are explained in the manual that you have not read with sufficient care. Everything about the manual, all Pentax equipment, and this response is perfect.
Thank you - looks like I am still sane after all - having understood this nonsense exactly the same way..

Anybody has any suggestion on what else I could try to get Ricoh to admit there is a problem that they try to sweep under the carpet ?
11-26-2014, 05:28 PM   #75
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well my AF160FC doesn't have the issues you people are reporting on, though I don't have a K-01. In any case I certainly wouldn't use it for macro work - the K5IIs with liveview does the job well enough for me.
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