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05-05-2015, 08:56 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anguel Quote
Very disappointing, as the Metz is advertised as fully compatible with K-30.
It is It accepts all commands that the camera throws at it.

QuoteOriginally posted by Anguel Quote
Looks like you can't trust any company these days. They sell you untested stuff.
It might have been tested on a K3 that might not have the limitation.

But I agree that it's very disappointing; one buys a flash for this type of features and may assume it works.

05-05-2015, 10:10 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by sterretje Quote
It is It accepts all commands that the camera throws at it.
Thanks for the fast reply, sterretje. So is it now "confirmed", that the Pentax firmware is actually the problem and not the Metz firmware? This would also mean that Metz can not do anything to solve the problem.

I am new to this stuff and still considering whether to try to return the Metz. So do I understand correctly, that P-TTL is still fully usable with this firmware limitation? The "only" problem is that the light is wasted because it is spread wider, if I understand. It also looks like zoom can be set manually while still in P-TTL.

Additionally, what zoom mm levels can be chosen seems to depend on the zoom mode I select: standard, extended, spot.

Anguel
05-05-2015, 11:14 PM   #18
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I don't have the flash (I wished I had it, even with this limitation).

Yes, as far as I understand it from gruber_69's posts, it's a camera limitation. I'm not sure if you can manually zoom in pTTL but you can easily try it yourself Regarding the zoom levels in the different modes, this seems to be the case according to the manual and makes sense to me.
05-06-2015, 03:59 AM   #19
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Today I called Metz support here in Germany. The answers sounded pretty professional to me and the support guy mentioned that he had even worked in Metz development for some time. So here are some answers:

1. He told me that this is a Pentax camera limitation and there is NO information exchange between both companies in order to solve it; according to Metz support, Pentax would probably not be interested in this anyway, as they are producing competing flashes. Metz still regards the flash as fully compatible with Pentax. Still I ask the question: Why don't they even mention this limitation in the datasheets???

2. According to the Metz support guy, the Pentax communication bus may be the real bottleneck, as there are probably no additional bits free to be able to pass more information. He told me that the Pentax flashes allow reflector settings up to something over 100 mm; I asked him, why I get only up to 70 mm and he told me that this because of APS-C conversion. I am not very sure which way such conversions have to be calculated so I can't confirm that this is the case but maybe the experts here can tell me if this sounds right or not...

3. He told me that P-TTL should still be working while changing the reflector setting manually. BTW: My first observations regarding P-TTL mode (not related to the reflector problem): Many photos just look underexposed.

4. He told me that the 64 AF-1 automatic mode (i.e. when the flash calculates the light itself, without TTL) will also take the camera settings into account. This would normally not be possible with Pentax cameras, because they stop communicating with the flash as soon as the flash is switched to automatic. But Metz "fools" the Pentax cameras that they work in a different mode and gets the camera settings. Hope all of these complex hacks work together...

5. According to Metz support Germany, there is NO planned firmware update for the 64 AF-1 Pentax version. Everything would work well at the moment. This seems to contradict the information gruber_69 received.

Anguel

05-06-2015, 04:51 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anguel Quote
2. According to the Metz support guy, the Pentax communication bus may be the real bottleneck, as there are probably no additional bits free to be able to pass more information. He told me that the Pentax flashes allow reflector settings up to something over 100 mm; I asked him, why I get only up to 70 mm and he told me that this because of APS-C conversion. I am not very sure which way such conversions have to be calculated so I can't confirm that this is the case but maybe the experts here can tell me if this sounds right or not...
That's correct; a 70mm on APSc gives the same field of view as a 105mm on FF. I'm not sure about the parts about the bits; Pentax can always add new 'commands' if they are interested in it.

QuoteOriginally posted by Anguel Quote
4. He told me that the 64 AF-1 automatic mode (i.e. when the flash calculates the light itself, without TTL) will also take the camera settings into account. This would normally not be possible with Pentax cameras, because they stop communicating with the flash as soon as the flash is switched to automatic. But Metz "fools" the Pentax cameras that they work in a different mode and gets the camera settings. Hope all of these complex hacks work together...
It does indeed makes sense that it does something like that; I don't think it will work if you use the flash off-camera but in that case you set it all manually.

QuoteOriginally posted by Anguel Quote
5. According to Metz support Germany, there is NO planned firmware update for the 64 AF-1 Pentax version. Everything would work well at the moment. This seems to contradict the information gruber_69 received.
The latest information gruber_69 received was that it could not be fixed as it's a Pentax issue (post #11).

I've contacted a member who has the 64 and a K3 and might be able to let us know if the K3 has the issue as well.
05-06-2015, 06:23 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by sterretje Quote
That's correct; a 70mm on APSc gives the same field of view as a 105mm on FF. I'm not sure about the parts about the bits; Pentax can always add new 'commands' if they are interested in it.
Thanks for the clarification. I will also test to turn off "zoom size" mode. This should show me 105 mm instead of 70 mm if I understand correctly. Sorry, I am still a bit confused...
This is from the manual:
Shooting format adjustment (Zoom-Size): Certain types of digital cameras allow the display for the position of the reflector to be adjusted to chip-format (dimensions of the recording module) using the Zoom Size function.

Regarding new functions: We can only hope that Pentax will introduce flashes with more zoom very soon which is unlikely

QuoteQuote:
I've contacted a member who has the 64 and a K3 and might be able to let us know if the K3 has the issue as well.
Thank you very much. The answer will be probably the same.

Anguel
05-06-2015, 04:23 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anguel Quote
I will also test to turn off "zoom size" mode. This should show me 105 mm instead of 70 mm if I understand correctly.
I have the 58 AF-2, but I think it behaves the same way (except that it cannot zoom as much as the 64 AF-1). As I have understood it, the zoom size do not change the flash coverage (zoom position). It only decides if it shall display the focal length for what the current zoom position covers on an APS-C or on a FF (zoom size on and off respectively). If it has zoomed to where it covers a 70 mm on a APS-C, it will show 70 mm with zoom size on, and 105 mm with zoom size off. The actual position of the reflector stay the same.

Cheers,
05-06-2015, 09:51 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anguel Quote
Thanks for the clarification. I will also test to turn off "zoom size" mode. This should show me 105 mm instead of 70 mm if I understand correctly. Sorry, I am still a bit confused...
This is from the manual:
Shooting format adjustment (Zoom-Size): Certain types of digital cameras allow the display for the position of the reflector to be adjusted to chip-format (dimensions of the recording module) using the Zoom Size function.

Regarding new functions: We can only hope that Pentax will introduce flashes with more zoom very soon which is unlikely

Thank you very much. The answer will be probably the same.

Anguel
My flash won't stick to the "zoom size" off mode. It keeps going back to APS-C sensor size after halfway shutter press. I confirmed that zoom isn't working past 70mm on the K-3. Tested with 55-300.

Maybe K-3 II will have it fixed as it doesn't have built-in flash so maybe this limitation will be removed.

I agree that Metz should test it thoroughly and mention this limitation in datasheet. It stand in the manual that reflector will zoom automatically to the highest value(135 for APS-C).

I sent e-mail to Pentax service center in Poland. No reply. Also to international technical support. No response. Pentax is obviosly not interested in fixing this for older cameras.

05-07-2015, 12:02 PM   #24
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I also tested on the K-3, and it sets at 70mm for the DA*300. However, it is not that difficult to program a setting with the 135mm position manually set. Also, at 300mm or longer, I really need the "Better Beamer" to throw the flash far enough. The BB recommends the flash zoom at around 50mm anyway.
05-08-2015, 03:36 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by nozoom Quote
As I have understood it, the zoom size do not change the flash coverage (zoom position). It only decides if it shall display the focal length for what the current zoom position covers on an APS-C or on a FF (zoom size on and off respectively). If it has zoomed to where it covers a 70 mm on a APS-C, it will show 70 mm with zoom size on, and 105 mm with zoom size off. The actual position of the reflector stay the same.
The more I think about this the more I am confused. If "zoom size" recalculates from FF to APS-C, why do I see 55 mm in the flash display when I have set my lens to 55 mm and not the APS-C equivalent?
05-08-2015, 04:13 AM   #26
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Because the lens is 55mm; internally it will zoom to the next step (70? 85?).

Don't overthink it
05-08-2015, 04:26 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by sterretje Quote
Because the lens is 55mm; internally it will zoom to the next step (70? 85?).
Full frame zoom positions according to the manual: 24-28-35-50-70-85-105-135-180-200 mm

My lens is 55 - 300 mm. When I zoom out to 55 mm on the lens, the flash shows 55 mm (if I remember correctly as I don't have the camera here) shouldn't it show something around 36 if it really calculates for APS-C? The next step then shows 70 mm but now they tell me that this is APS-C calculation and the lens is actually turned to 135 mm. That does not fit somehow...
05-08-2015, 05:32 AM   #28
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55mm on APSc gives the same field of view as 82.5mm on FF. So if you would expect e.g. 82mm, I could agree, but 36mm is the wrong way around.

If the flash shows 55, I assume it shows the actual focal length of the lens. If it shows 50, it indicates the zoom position. I assume it's the latter (based on the zoom positions you posted).

Regardless, this is a visual indication only, corrected for the sensor format. So the physical zoom position is 70mm, but the displayed zoom position is 50mm (or 55mm if it displays the focal length of the lens). To me, it makes sense to show the corrected zoom position as that is in the same magnitude as the focal length of the lens.
05-08-2015, 05:55 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by sterretje Quote
55mm on APSc gives the same field of view as 82.5mm on FF. So if you would expect e.g. 82mm, I could agree, but 36mm is the wrong way around.

If the flash shows 55, I assume it shows the actual focal length of the lens. If it shows 50, it indicates the zoom position. I assume it's the latter (based on the zoom positions you posted).

Regardless, this is a visual indication only, corrected for the sensor format. So the physical zoom position is 70mm, but the displayed zoom position is 50mm (or 55mm if it displays the focal length of the lens). To me, it makes sense to show the corrected zoom position as that is in the same magnitude as the focal length of the lens.
I see, as soon as I get the camera back I will report to what focal length I set the lens and what the flash displays. I still think that it does not make sense what the flash recognizes no matter if it claims to show APS-C or FF reflector zoom.
05-08-2015, 06:18 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anguel Quote
Full frame zoom positions according to the manual: 24-28-35-50-70-85-105-135-180-200 mm

My lens is 55 - 300 mm. When I zoom out to 55 mm on the lens, the flash shows 55 mm (if I remember correctly as I don't have the camera here) shouldn't it show something around 36 if it really calculates for APS-C? The next step then shows 70 mm but now they tell me that this is APS-C calculation and the lens is actually turned to 135 mm. That does not fit somehow...

To me, that is consistent with the setting for APS-C. The problem has been that the zoom on the flash won't go to 135, the max setting for a cropped sensor. You can override the APS-C lens system and get the flash to read that it is set at 200, rather than 135. My experience was that if the flash is set in it default state for P-TTL, you get only readings for APS-C.
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