Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
10-21-2015, 09:32 AM   #1
Site Supporter




Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 373
When 2 second mirror up is not sufficient

I've begun to realise that the 2 second mirror up delay is not always sufficient to avoid shake.

I am often working in the 1/16 to 2 second shutter speed range. The tripod/head I use are mid-range manfrottos.

I appreciate longer focal focal lengths are more prone to visible shake, but how does the weight and length of the lens effect shake on a tripod ? For instance my d-fa 100mm macro is very susceptible to shake if I just use the 2 second MU delay, and I find I need to use a remote and let the mirror/finger vibrations subside for > 2 seconds. My 70mm limited never has this problem and is a similar focal length. I'm not sure what will happen for my new 50-135 ... I'd like to just use the 2 second delay without having to hunt for the remote/cable, but this is not a good idea for some lenses it seems.

So what are other's experiences with mirror/shutter/tripod/finger vibrations and individual lenses ? Maybe If I could dampen the resonant vibrations in the tripod, this may help (how ? weights ?) ... ?

10-21-2015, 09:35 AM   #2
Site Supporter
jatrax's Avatar

Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oregon
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 10,749
I use 2 second delay but WITH the remote. I do not think it is long enough if you are going to manually trip the shutter. I think it is OK to damp the vibration from the mirror itself but not your fingers. The 12 second delay might work though.
10-21-2015, 09:36 AM   #3
Site Supporter
boriscleto's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Liverpool, NY
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 12,836
Then use M.UP and a cable release.
10-21-2015, 10:15 AM   #4
Site Supporter




Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 373
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
Then use M.UP and a cable release.
Not a good idea when it's wet, unfortunately. And the cable gets in the way ;-)

10-21-2015, 10:33 AM   #5
Site Supporter
Madaboutpix's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Rhine-Westphalia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 277
QuoteOriginally posted by BarryE Quote
Not a good idea when it's wet, unfortunately. And the cable gets in the way ;-)
Er, how about M.UP (or shooting in LV, when the mirror is up anyway, with the K-3 at least) plus a weather-sealed IR remote like Pentax's own O-RC1? Years ago, I treated myself to its predecessor, the tried-and-tested Remote Control F. It is tiny, and unless you let it get soaked by the rain, it probably wouldn't break either. Personally, I would feel kind of naked during tripod shoots without it.

Last edited by Madaboutpix; 10-21-2015 at 10:38 AM.
10-21-2015, 10:52 AM   #6
Pentaxian




Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ontario
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,542
A weight under tension suspended from the tripod can help.

Which camera body do you have? The "advanced" ones will have true mirror lock up via IR remote... one press flips up the mirror, wait as long as you like, then the next press takes the photo. I've used this to back up a few feet away before taking the shot to ensure my own movement isn't messing things up during long exposures (think close-ups on dark and spongy forest floors).

edit- I re-read your thread and I guess you're already doing this. As to the convenience, I keep a few cheap IR remotes in various pockets at all times when shooting so I always have one on hand.
10-21-2015, 11:25 AM   #7
Loyal Site Supporter
UncleVanya's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2014
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 9,768
Get the older remote control C - it attaches to the strap.
10-21-2015, 11:53 AM   #8
Loyal Site Supporter
Scorpio71GR's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Michigan
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,705
Your macro lens magnifies not only just the image but any vibrations as well. With a macro and high magnification everything has to be rock solid especially with shutter speeds that low. With my 500mm I sometimes have to wait 30 seconds to a minute for all the vibrations to dampen out. I always use live view and magnification when shooting distant subjects. Even the wind can effect my 500mm and ruin a shot. T

10-21-2015, 11:58 AM   #9
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 340
What kind of tripod are you using. A consumer grade, lightweight department store camera tripod will not cut it. You need a good professional, heavy duty tripod. As heavy as you can afford. You need a Tripod with at least a load capacity that is 2X the weight of the camera and lens that you are going to use on it. also try to use it with the central column as low as possible. This will help reduce the vibration. Sandbags and other techniques can also be used. The higher the mass, the more resistant it will be to vibration.
10-21-2015, 12:22 PM   #10
Pentaxian




Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ontario
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,542
QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
Get the older remote control C - it attaches to the strap.
A strap mountable remote is great for convenience, but the strap attached to the camera doesn't do you any favours if it's at all windy. In this case, you want to remove the strap and wear it as a headband so the IR remote is still at the ready.
10-21-2015, 12:23 PM   #11
Site Supporter




Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 373
Original Poster
Promacjoe and Scorpio ... Not pro grade tripod as then not carryable, but 250 combo price - so good quality. The 30 seconds is interesting. I did find I was waiting around 10 seconds, but thought that excessive.

I tried suspending my camera bag from the hook, but to be honest it wasn't really convenient. I never extend the centre column as this really can be problematic.

Seems I could buy multiple orc1 s, wait more than 10 seconds, work out a way of adding weight ... Idea i know a could use my water bottle.

Any more comments on individual lenses that may be more susceptible could be interesting as I feel there's more to it than focal length. I reasoned heavier would dampen the vibrations quicker than lighter, but this did not seem to be the case.
10-21-2015, 12:23 PM   #12
Loyal Site Supporter
UncleVanya's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2014
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 9,768
QuoteOriginally posted by BarryE Quote
The tripod/head I use are mid-range manfrottos.
QuoteOriginally posted by promacjoe Quote
What kind of tripod are you using.
See original post.

Which camera the original poster is using is something I missed. If it is a K3 then LiveView with remote might work. WIth the K50/30 the mirror flaps down and back up when you use liveview and fire the shutter.
10-21-2015, 12:27 PM   #13
Site Supporter




Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 373
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by BrianR Quote
A strap mountable remote is great for convenience, but the strap attached to the camera doesn't do you any favours if it's at all windy. In this case, you want to remove the strap and wear it as a headband so the IR remote is still at the ready.
I used to the wr remote round my wrist via a thread, but it was for ever getting in the way. I could attach it to my camera bag's shoulder strap. Trouble is I have multiple bags.

A solution is emerging from this ...thanks
10-21-2015, 06:59 PM   #14
Pentaxian
Lowell Goudge's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Toronto
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 15,399
Before you go too far on the camera, you need to do a simple check on your tripod stability

Mount what ever lens and camera combo you want, look through the view finder and give a slight tap on the top of the mirror housing. Watch how much the camera vibrates ( for long lenses this is easy through the viewfinder. For short lenses you might not notice.)

Then hang about 5 pounds off your tripod at the centre column, and do the test again. Many times you get bounce from the tripod legs, and this can be dampened simply by adding more weight . If this does not solve the issue, the. The problem is the tripod head itself,

There is a device called a long lens support, that is a telescoping rod, a small ball head to attach to the camera, and a clamp that goes on a tripod leg. This can stabilize vibration and flexing of the tripod head.

It is not so much a question of a 2 second delay or more, but simple mechanics. You need to track down where the mounting system is allowing vibration.

Many photographers take an empty bag that they can hang off their tripod, and fill with locally found sand and rocks to dampen vibration by hanging the bag directly over the lens on a tripod, using a strap
10-21-2015, 07:07 PM - 1 Like   #15
Site Supporter
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 27,264
QuoteOriginally posted by BarryE Quote
I am often working in the 1/16 to 2 second shutter speed range. The tripod/head I use are mid-range manfrottos.
OK...not sure what that means...they make quite a few different types of heads at moderate price point, but with different specs and design.

QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
I use 2 second delay but WITH the remote.
I sometimes use a remote, but usually the 2s delay is quite adequate. If I have doubts, I use the 2s with my phone as remote trigger.

QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
Then use M.UP and a cable release.
That is what I do for truly critical shooting.

QuoteOriginally posted by promacjoe Quote
What kind of tripod are you using.
Ta! Da! And the prize goes to Joe.

There are three divergent forces at work:
  • Affordability
  • Weight
  • Stability
The important thing to consider is that any attempt to reduce price will result in a decrease in stability and/or an increase in weight. Likewise, a decrease in weight will tend to increase price and/or decrease stability and so on.

A few things to consider:
  • Manufacturer tripod/head capacities are highly optimistic, usually 2x so or more
  • All stated capacities assume a balanced load
  • Place the load off balance and everything from the head through to the spider and the leg joints is placed at inappropriate compression or tension. What this means is that the structure is poised to act as a spring when vibration is introduced.
  • If the head "sags" after the position is set, it is probably not the head
  • Weight on the spider (wrap is best) or around the feet (think small sand bags) is helpful and can help override the effect of unbalance
  • The resonant qualities of the set-up are not solely based on materials. Translation? Carbon can suck just as badly as alloy.
  • The vibration characteristics of modern SLRs are incredibly good by historic standards
  • A few of the more potent enemies of stability are unstable ground and wind
That last point is a killer. Urban streets and sidewalks are not stable ground. They are built over hollow space and flex with traffic and the movement of adjacent buildings. Bridge decks may or may not be stable. Stream banks adjacent to white water and/or water falls may carry the vibrations of the stream. Ditto for rocks in the surf zone. If you can feel the it through your feet, so can the camera. Solid rock with metal point feet are your friend if you have the option (better to be tightly coupled). As for wind, if it is buffeting you, the same is true for that spindly tripod.


Steve

(...regarding bridges...so much depends on the bridge design and traffic...Here is a LINK to a 2s exposure on a well-designed suspension bridge with very light load and little traffic...2s delay)

Last edited by stevebrot; 10-21-2015 at 07:19 PM.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
camera, delay, length, lenses, mirror, pentax help, photography, tripod, troubleshooting, vibrations
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
K-r, mirror is not going up, no Live View either d1pr3d Troubleshooting and Beginner Help 5 12-19-2016 08:27 AM
Mirror lock-up with 2-second delay bpv_UW Pentax K-5 4 02-14-2013 02:22 PM
[6x7] Mirror goes up when new frame is winded blindmix Troubleshooting and Beginner Help 6 11-09-2011 01:20 AM
Noise when mirror is up lawtonkar Pentax DSLR Discussion 2 02-07-2010 03:20 PM
K20, on board flash & 2 second mirror up delay interested_observer Pentax DSLR Discussion 4 12-31-2009 08:41 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:39 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top