Should I upgrade my K20D to a K3?

audiobomber · 11-04-2015, 05:21 AM

Originally posted by Pentax_family

The performance of high ISO at low light condition of K3 is very promising, but I still consider the K5IIs a better option when taking photos at low light condition, may be due to its larger pixel size of sensor.

The K-5 is not superior to the K-3 for low light shooting according to DXOMark, when comparing uncropped images. The most common mistake people make is to compare at pixel level (100% resolution), which is not a fair test for a camera with more pixels.

Note that the K-5 family has non-optional noise reduction added at high ISO's and the K-3 doesn't. Also, the K-3 has much higher resolution than a K-5 due to more pixels and the lack of a blur filter. Adding noise reduction smoothens the look of the image, decreasing the appearance of noise and losing detail. Done properly, you should be able to equalize K-5 and K-3 files. The in-camera noise reduction doesn't seem to work too well, but a good NR program can do wonders. I use Noiseware Standard Edition.

Of course nothing you can do to a K-5 will bring it even with a K-3 for cropping, accurate metering, resolution in good light, sophisticated tracking and accurate auto-focus.

Last edited by audiobomber; 11-04-2015 at 05:56 AM.

**RKKS08** · 11-04-2015, 06:20 AM

The OP should keep in mind that for the K-3 he may also need a new (very fast) computer for post.
And probably additional hard disks.

And if, for some reason, one needs to use a laptop and still wants to see the correct colors, this could turn out to be more expensive than the K-3 itself.

**WPRESTO** · 11-04-2015, 06:34 AM

Originally posted by RKKS08

And if, for some reason, one needs to use a laptop and still wants to see the correct colors, this could turn out to be more expensive than the K-3 itself.

Correct colors: As a long-time chrome user that is the minor catch in digital. Wonderful to be able to manipulate color images more easily than I used to do B&W in the darkroom. Enhance (or subdue) saturation, vibrancy, crop, correct perspective, bring out single colors, make it brighter, make it darker, burn, dodge, on and on. BUT, get the color spot-on on my $800 monitor, take the file in for sharing at the photo club, and my images are not the same because the projector used isn't color calibrated the same way as the monitor at home. Posting here on PF, the colors in my images may look 100 subtly different ways to other Pentaxians because of the computer, monitor, calibration, or no calibration they use. Even on this laptop, just changing the tilt of the screen will will drastically alter the appearance of an image. With chromes/slides, what you saw with your home projector would be essentially identical to what was seen when the slides were projected by the camera club's projector (commonly the same model Kodak carousel using the same Kodak lens). It's a minor complaint compared to the myriad of advantages that digital offers, but sometimes it's annoying.

BrianR · 11-04-2015, 06:51 AM

Originally posted by lynnslenses

As my interest and knowledge in photography has increased substantially since I got my first DSLR, a K20D, I'm finding a few limitations with this camera in certain situations and wondering if it's time to consider upgrading to the K3 or K3II. I'd appreciate thoughts and comments from anyone who has gone through this dilemma. Thanks.

What are the limitations you're running into?

Before buying something new I always ask myself:

-Will the new equipment overcome obstacles my old equipment is hitting?

-Are these obstacles a matter of convenience or are they impeding a type or quality of photograph I'm after? (ex. dual control wheels are a convenience, super-telephoto for skittish wildlife less so)

-Can I overcome these obstacles some other way? (ex. by refining technique, or spending weeks in a blind waiting for a unicorn to come within 5 feet instead of a super-tele)

It can be hard to be honest when something shiny and new is just a few mouse clicks away.

grispie · 11-04-2015, 07:00 AM

Originally posted by BrianR

It can be hard to be honest when something shiny and new is just a few mouse clicks away.

I would like to know what lenses the OP has.
lens upgrades have always helped me more in improving my photos than a body did...

**Canada_Rockies** · 11-04-2015, 09:10 AM

The K3 is night and day ahead of my K10, but I did not NEED to upgrade; I succumbed to the temptations of the K3 and when a used one came up from a reliable source at a price I was willing to pay, I bought one. I have usually waited until I was three miles behind the pack in a one mile race before upgrading any hardware, and I did this, skipping over the K20, K7, and K5 in its several flavours. The last images I took with the K10 got rave reviews in some quarters (I'm not in the same class of photographer as a whole bunch of people on this forum) for clarity and colour. The K3, however, allows me to take some photographs in light that was so far beyond the capabilities of the K10 that I am blown away. I read it was better, but reading and actually using it are light years apart.

pentasonic49 · 11-04-2015, 02:28 PM

Do it, but keep the K20, it's still a great camera.

**lynnslenses** · 11-04-2015, 03:52 PM

Thanks so much everyone, for your information, suggestions and insights. I do love my K20D and have made a significant investment in several great lenses, however, you have all definitely given me things to consider before I make my final decision. (But definitely can't go FF route unless I win the lotto - LOL!!!) If I do upgrade, though, I probably still won't part with my K20D (like the comment about having another body available to minimize lens changes in some of my shoots). So, thanks again and happy shooting!

pathdoc · 11-04-2015, 04:31 PM

I cannot speak to the K20 or the K3, but I can certainly speak to the benefits of waiting for several generations of DSLR to come out before making the switch. Mine was from *istDL to K-5, enforced by the DL's death, and the difference was phenomenal.

Things were different in the days of film - there, the lens really was everything because the sensor was something you chose and put in yourself, and if you were bulk loading or buying individual rolls from the same lot or batch number, you could control for sensor variables. Then all that mattered was how accurate the metering was and how many tricks the camera could pull to make your life easier (e.g. ME vs MX).

normhead · 11-04-2015, 08:29 PM

If there's one thing I'd go to a seminar on it would be user modes P mode etc. I essentially use my camera like a spotmatic, and the manual is anything but clear on how to use these features. A nice tutorial with examples would be excellent. And I've never thought of reprogramming a button. Does this mean i could turn my raw/jpeg button to turn on bracketing?

**Canada_Rockies** · 11-04-2015, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by normhead

If there's one thing I'd go to a seminar on it would be user modes P mode etc. I essentially use my camera like a spotmatic, and the manual is anything but clear on how to use these features. A nice tutorial with examples would be excellent. And I've never thought of reprogramming a button. Does this mean i could turn my raw/jpeg button to turn on bracketing?

That's exactly how I programmed my RAW/Fx button - pop up the bracketing screen. Quick and Easy.

The trick to using P mode is remembering that changing an f/stop will result in the shutter speed changing to keep the exposure constant. I hardly ever set my camera to Av. If I want a smaller aperture I just set it. I grew up with manual only, then aperture priority. I never did wrap my head around using Tv - If I want a slow one, stop down; if I want a fast one, open up. Highest possible shutter speed? Open wide!

Albert the often confused.

Floggin Rodger · 11-04-2015, 10:15 PM

In reply to the OP I would have to ask in what situations do you feel limitted by the K20?

zekewhipper · 11-16-2015, 05:10 PM

I went from a K20D to a K-5 and, the improvement in dynamic range and ISO noise was astounding to me. I do like a few of the external controls on the K20D better and think it is a prettier camera but, the K-5 (and by default the K-3) do provide noticeably superior results.

audiobomber · 11-16-2015, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by zekewhipper

I went from a K20D to a K-5 and, the improvement in dynamic range and ISO noise was astounding to me. I do like a few of the external controls on the K20D better and think it is a prettier camera but, the K-5 (and by default the K-3) do provide noticeably superior results.

I returned my K-5 after two weeks and kept the K20D. The K-5 had severe back-focus in tungsten light, which did not begin to make up for one stop better sensor performance.
Pentax K20D vs Pentax K-5 (5 points = 1/3 stop)

The K-5 II resolved the K-5's AF problem, The K-3 takes tracking to another level.

zekewhipper · 11-16-2015, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by audiobomber

I returned my K-5 after two weeks and kept the K20D. The K-5 had severe back-focus in tungsten light, which did not begin to make up for one stop better sensor performance.
Pentax K20D vs Pentax K-5 (5 points = 1/3 stop)

The K-5 II resolved the K-5's AF problem, The K-3 takes tracking to another level.

You could have adjusted for the back-focus.

11-04-2015, 03:52 PM	#38
lynnslenses Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Priddis, Alberta Photos: Gallery Posts: 58 Original Poster	Thanks, everyone Thanks so much everyone, for your information, suggestions and insights. I do love my K20D and have made a significant investment in several great lenses, however, you have all definitely given me things to consider before I make my final decision. (But definitely can't go FF route unless I win the lotto - LOL!!!) If I do upgrade, though, I probably still won't part with my K20D (like the comment about having another body available to minimize lens changes in some of my shoots). So, thanks again and happy shooting!

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11-04-2015, 05:21 AM	#31
audiobomber Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Sudbury, Ontario Photos: Albums Posts: 6,806	Originally posted by Pentax_family The performance of high ISO at low light condition of K3 is very promising, but I still consider the K5IIs a better option when taking photos at low light condition, may be due to its larger pixel size of sensor. The K-5 is not superior to the K-3 for low light shooting according to DXOMark, when comparing uncropped images. The most common mistake people make is to compare at pixel level (100% resolution), which is not a fair test for a camera with more pixels. Note that the K-5 family has non-optional noise reduction added at high ISO's and the K-3 doesn't. Also, the K-3 has much higher resolution than a K-5 due to more pixels and the lack of a blur filter. Adding noise reduction smoothens the look of the image, decreasing the appearance of noise and losing detail. Done properly, you should be able to equalize K-5 and K-3 files. The in-camera noise reduction doesn't seem to work too well, but a good NR program can do wonders. I use Noiseware Standard Edition. Of course nothing you can do to a K-5 will bring it even with a K-3 for cropping, accurate metering, resolution in good light, sophisticated tracking and accurate auto-focus. Last edited by audiobomber; 11-04-2015 at 05:56 AM.

11-04-2015, 06:20 AM	#32
RKKS08 Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Frankfurt am Main Posts: 1,241	The OP should keep in mind that for the K-3 he may also need a new (very fast) computer for post. And probably additional hard disks. And if, for some reason, one needs to use a laptop and still wants to see the correct colors, this could turn out to be more expensive than the K-3 itself.

11-04-2015, 06:34 AM	#33
WPRESTO Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Massachusetts Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 59,139	Originally posted by RKKS08 And if, for some reason, one needs to use a laptop and still wants to see the correct colors, this could turn out to be more expensive than the K-3 itself. Correct colors: As a long-time chrome user that is the minor catch in digital. Wonderful to be able to manipulate color images more easily than I used to do B&W in the darkroom. Enhance (or subdue) saturation, vibrancy, crop, correct perspective, bring out single colors, make it brighter, make it darker, burn, dodge, on and on. BUT, get the color spot-on on my $800 monitor, take the file in for sharing at the photo club, and my images are not the same because the projector used isn't color calibrated the same way as the monitor at home. Posting here on PF, the colors in my images may look 100 subtly different ways to other Pentaxians because of the computer, monitor, calibration, or no calibration they use. Even on this laptop, just changing the tilt of the screen will will drastically alter the appearance of an image. With chromes/slides, what you saw with your home projector would be essentially identical to what was seen when the slides were projected by the camera club's projector (commonly the same model Kodak carousel using the same Kodak lens). It's a minor complaint compared to the myriad of advantages that digital offers, but sometimes it's annoying.

11-04-2015, 06:51 AM	#34
BrianR Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,332	Originally posted by lynnslenses As my interest and knowledge in photography has increased substantially since I got my first DSLR, a K20D, I'm finding a few limitations with this camera in certain situations and wondering if it's time to consider upgrading to the K3 or K3II. I'd appreciate thoughts and comments from anyone who has gone through this dilemma. Thanks. What are the limitations you're running into? Before buying something new I always ask myself: -Will the new equipment overcome obstacles my old equipment is hitting? -Are these obstacles a matter of convenience or are they impeding a type or quality of photograph I'm after? (ex. dual control wheels are a convenience, super-telephoto for skittish wildlife less so) -Can I overcome these obstacles some other way? (ex. by refining technique, or spending weeks in a blind waiting for a unicorn to come within 5 feet instead of a super-tele) It can be hard to be honest when something shiny and new is just a few mouse clicks away.

11-04-2015, 07:00 AM	#35
grispie Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,199	Originally posted by BrianR It can be hard to be honest when something shiny and new is just a few mouse clicks away. I would like to know what lenses the OP has. lens upgrades have always helped me more in improving my photos than a body did...

11-04-2015, 09:10 AM	#36
Canada_Rockies Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sparwood, BC, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,385	The K3 is night and day ahead of my K10, but I did not NEED to upgrade; I succumbed to the temptations of the K3 and when a used one came up from a reliable source at a price I was willing to pay, I bought one. I have usually waited until I was three miles behind the pack in a one mile race before upgrading any hardware, and I did this, skipping over the K20, K7, and K5 in its several flavours. The last images I took with the K10 got rave reviews in some quarters (I'm not in the same class of photographer as a whole bunch of people on this forum) for clarity and colour. The K3, however, allows me to take some photographs in light that was so far beyond the capabilities of the K10 that I am blown away. I read it was better, but reading and actually using it are light years apart.

11-04-2015, 02:28 PM	#37
pentasonic49 Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: weston-super-mare Posts: 395	Do it, but keep the K20, it's still a great camera.

11-04-2015, 04:31 PM	#39
pathdoc Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2015 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,381	I cannot speak to the K20 or the K3, but I can certainly speak to the benefits of waiting for several generations of DSLR to come out before making the switch. Mine was from *istDL to K-5, enforced by the DL's death, and the difference was phenomenal. Things were different in the days of film - there, the lens really was everything because the sensor was something you chose and put in yourself, and if you were bulk loading or buying individual rolls from the same lot or batch number, you could control for sensor variables. Then all that mattered was how accurate the metering was and how many tricks the camera could pull to make your life easier (e.g. ME vs MX).

11-04-2015, 08:29 PM	#40
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	If there's one thing I'd go to a seminar on it would be user modes P mode etc. I essentially use my camera like a spotmatic, and the manual is anything but clear on how to use these features. A nice tutorial with examples would be excellent. And I've never thought of reprogramming a button. Does this mean i could turn my raw/jpeg button to turn on bracketing?

11-04-2015, 09:56 PM	#41
Canada_Rockies Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Sparwood, BC, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,385	Originally posted by normhead If there's one thing I'd go to a seminar on it would be user modes P mode etc. I essentially use my camera like a spotmatic, and the manual is anything but clear on how to use these features. A nice tutorial with examples would be excellent. And I've never thought of reprogramming a button. Does this mean i could turn my raw/jpeg button to turn on bracketing? That's exactly how I programmed my RAW/Fx button - pop up the bracketing screen. Quick and Easy. The trick to using P mode is remembering that changing an f/stop will result in the shutter speed changing to keep the exposure constant. I hardly ever set my camera to Av. If I want a smaller aperture I just set it. I grew up with manual only, then aperture priority. I never did wrap my head around using Tv - If I want a slow one, stop down; if I want a fast one, open up. Highest possible shutter speed? Open wide! Albert the often confused.

11-04-2015, 10:15 PM	#42
Floggin Rodger Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Eastern NC Posts: 132	In reply to the OP I would have to ask in what situations do you feel limitted by the K20?

11-16-2015, 05:10 PM	#43
zekewhipper Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Photos: Albums Posts: 308	I went from a K20D to a K-5 and, the improvement in dynamic range and ISO noise was astounding to me. I do like a few of the external controls on the K20D better and think it is a prettier camera but, the K-5 (and by default the K-3) do provide noticeably superior results.

11-16-2015, 05:53 PM	#44
audiobomber Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Sudbury, Ontario Photos: Albums Posts: 6,806	Originally posted by zekewhipper I went from a K20D to a K-5 and, the improvement in dynamic range and ISO noise was astounding to me. I do like a few of the external controls on the K20D better and think it is a prettier camera but, the K-5 (and by default the K-3) do provide noticeably superior results. I returned my K-5 after two weeks and kept the K20D. The K-5 had severe back-focus in tungsten light, which did not begin to make up for one stop better sensor performance. Pentax K20D vs Pentax K-5 (5 points = 1/3 stop) The K-5 II resolved the K-5's AF problem, The K-3 takes tracking to another level.

11-16-2015, 07:07 PM	#45
zekewhipper Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Photos: Albums Posts: 308	Originally posted by audiobomber I returned my K-5 after two weeks and kept the K20D. The K-5 had severe back-focus in tungsten light, which did not begin to make up for one stop better sensor performance. Pentax K20D vs Pentax K-5 (5 points = 1/3 stop) The K-5 II resolved the K-5's AF problem, The K-3 takes tracking to another level. You could have adjusted for the back-focus.