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01-31-2016, 07:19 AM   #1
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Color problem with K3 DNG in Camera RAW

Hello everyone,


I'm posting here as I have a recurrent problem with my DNG files when shooting images that have lot of red in them, especially sunsets/sunrises.
Here is the data:

- Pentax K-3, I shoot only RAW DNG, AdobeRGB, Bright Color Profile.
- I use Camera RAW (Photoshop CC) to develop the images.


The problem is that for the "red" images Photoshop will mute the red channel, giving the image a light-dirty-orange look. See the examples below, first two are developed through CameraRAW, the other 2 directly through the camera. The images below are sRGB but the problem is the same in AdobeRGB space.


The ones that were developed IN CAMERA (number 3 and 4) are extremely close to the preview of the DNG file and the "real" situation on site. The ones made with Camera RAW (number 1 and 2) are pure garbage.


Has anyone dealt with such a problem? Is there a color profile that I should use in order to avoid this problem?
Thank you in advance and I hope somebody can help me
Stefan

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01-31-2016, 09:19 AM   #2
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another example

here's another example:
as for the other image, I cannot retrieve withe CameraRAW the same tones of red (and yellow) as in the second image. I tried all combinations possible, nothing works...

first image: RAW opened with CameraRAW and saved without any corrections; color profile: embedded in the RAW file

second image: JPG image saved in camera; Bright Profile used (the same embedded in the RAW file);
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01-31-2016, 09:35 AM   #3
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I'm not sure I understand the problem. Seems like you are comparing sRGB vs ADOBE R&B. Or comparing jpeg vs RAW. The image profiles don't have any effect on raw images (like the bright profile).
01-31-2016, 09:36 AM   #4
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Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like you are comparing the results from RAW with the jpg's from the camera?

You can't do that. The RAW files will be unprocessed and it does not matter which colorspace and colorsettings you chose. Those apply to jpg's only.

I think Pentax's own software will replicate what you see in your jpg's but I've never used that.

01-31-2016, 09:57 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zafar Iqbal Quote
Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like you are comparing the results from RAW with the jpg's from the camera?

You can't do that. The RAW files will be unprocessed and it does not matter which colorspace and colorsettings you chose. Those apply to jpg's only.

I think Pentax's own software will replicate what you see in your jpg's but I've never used that.
no, maybe I wasn't clear enough: I'm not comparing AdobeRGB with sRGB or JPG vs RAW but the result of a JPG export from a RAW file between the camera and Photoshop.
I've tried SilkyPix (the Pentax Software) but it gives the same results....
so, once again:

1. the image was taken in RAW DNG, AdobeRGB.
2. the colors in the JPG preview embeded in the file look alright.
3. when I open the RAW and export in CameraRaw (using the sRGB space) the reds (and sometimes the yellows) are washed out (see the above example); the result is the same for AdobeRGB space;
4. when I open the RAW and export in camera (using the sRGB space) everything is Ok at color level: the red is what is should be; the result is the same for AdobeRGB space;

This happens only for images with a strong red dominant (or maybe I notice this only in this kind of image, because of the big difference it creates).
01-31-2016, 09:58 AM   #6
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also, I'm using Pentax for years (k10,k20,k5,k5ii,k01 and now k3) and only on the K3 i've seen this kind of problem...
01-31-2016, 10:10 AM   #7
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I dont understand the issue, the raw file will always have color that is off. if anything I would think maybe a setting on Photoshop cc may have changed with a recent update. This is something that comes up in a lightroom group I belong too and usually a color profile in the adobe software has been changed.
01-31-2016, 10:10 AM   #8
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It's perfectly normal that the RAW does not look like the JPG. It's not K3 related but across all cameras and brands. Perhaps you never noticed or compared before.

01-31-2016, 10:21 AM   #9
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Stefan - just to be clear, what is it that you wish to achieve? Do you want to replicate the in-camera JPEG development process, with Bright colour settings, of a RAW capture, by importing the DNG file into Camera Raw and making the necessary adjustments?

EDIT: The reason I'm asking this is, the "Bright" and other colour settings are in-camera development options for creating JPEGs and DNG-embedded JPEG previews. These settings are stored in the DNG file alongside the image data and will be picked up Pentax's Digital Camera Utility, but they are *not* a colour profile (like sRGB or AdobeRGB) that is read by Camera Raw or Lightroom. So what you see in Digital Camera Utility will be the RAW capture with those JPEG development options added - whereas in Camera Raw, you'll see the RAW capture without the JPEG colour settings reflected.

Last edited by BigMackCam; 01-31-2016 at 10:34 AM.
01-31-2016, 11:30 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Stefan - just to be clear, what is it that you wish to achieve? Do you want to replicate the in-camera JPEG development process, with Bright colour settings, of a RAW capture, by importing the DNG file into Camera Raw and making the necessary adjustments?

EDIT: The reason I'm asking this is, the "Bright" and other colour settings are in-camera development options for creating JPEGs and DNG-embedded JPEG previews. These settings are stored in the DNG file alongside the image data and will be picked up Pentax's Digital Camera Utility, but they are *not* a colour profile (like sRGB or AdobeRGB) that is read by Camera Raw or Lightroom. So what you see in Digital Camera Utility will be the RAW capture with those JPEG development options added - whereas in Camera Raw, you'll see the RAW capture without the JPEG colour settings reflected.
thank you for your answer, what I'm trying to replicate is the color in DNG preview whici corresponds with the "real" colors observed when the picture was made

I totally understand the difference between the Pentax modes (Bright, Landscape,etc) and the color profiles (sRGB ,etc), I was thinking that my problem has something to do with the "Camera Profile" under "Color Calibration" in Camera Raw... At this moment I have 2 options: Embedded and Adobe Standard and neither work. Nor playing with the settings below .... whatever I do I never get the same tones of red.
01-31-2016, 11:40 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by stefantuchila Quote
thank you for your answer, what I'm trying to replicate is the color in DNG preview whici corresponds with the "real" colors observed when the picture was made

I totally understand the difference between the Pentax modes (Bright, Landscape,etc) and the color profiles (sRGB ,etc), I was thinking that my problem has something to do with the "Camera Profile" under "Color Calibration" in Camera Raw... At this moment I have 2 options: Embedded and Adobe Standard and neither work. Nor playing with the settings below .... whatever I do I never get the same tones of red.
The DNG preview is a processed jpeg using whatever image setting you have selected. The actual DNG file is just sensor data and isn't processed. DCU can replicate the jpeg because it has the Pentax jpeg rendering algorithm in it. Lightroom does not, so it's up to you too tweak the file as you see fit.
01-31-2016, 11:45 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by enoeske Quote
The DNG preview is a processed jpeg using whatever image setting you have selected. The actual DNG file is just sensor data and isn't processed. DCU can replicate the jpeg because it has the Pentax jpeg rendering algorithm in it. Lightroom does not, so it's up to you too tweak the file as you see fit.
I will try using Digital Camera Utility to see if it works better. I know that I already tested the software a year ago, without big improvement.
But thanks for the idea, I will come back soon with the results..
01-31-2016, 11:53 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by stefantuchila Quote
thank you for your answer, what I'm trying to replicate is the color in DNG preview whici corresponds with the "real" colors observed when the picture was made

I totally understand the difference between the Pentax modes (Bright, Landscape,etc) and the color profiles (sRGB ,etc), I was thinking that my problem has something to do with the "Camera Profile" under "Color Calibration" in Camera Raw... At this moment I have 2 options: Embedded and Adobe Standard and neither work. Nor playing with the settings below .... whatever I do I never get the same tones of red.
OK, I understand.

As you probably know, the DNG preview is a JPEG image embedded into the DNG file - so, you take your RAW capture, the camera develops develops it into a JPEG using the colour settings you have selected (Bright, Natural, Portrait, Landscape, Vibrant etc.) and stores that JPEG along with the RAW capture data in the DNG file. But that embedded JPEG preview does not represent, in terms of colour reproduction, the RAW capture - it is a developed version of it using those selected colour settings. My recommendation, then, is to select the Natural colour setting, then edit the parameters for Natural so that Saturation, Hue, High / Low Key Adj and Contrast are all in the center. This will result in JPEGs (including those developed as previews for your RAW DNG captures) being as colour-neutral as possible when compared to the RAW image. Also make sure that you have any of the digital filters switched off, as these will also affect the embedded JPEG preview image. In Camera Raw, I would recommend using the Embedded colour profile as this is Pentax's own calibration for colour reproduction rather than Adobe Standard, which is just something that Adobe has come up with that should look OK with most cameras. Now, what you see in ACR should look very close to what you describe as the DNG preview (ie. the embedded JPEG preview image) - and you can start to edit the image in Photoshop to look like the in-camera colour settings / filters, if that's what you'd like to do. Do also bear in mind that if your PC / Mac screen is not colour calibrated (I use a ColorMunki Display device for this), you will also see quite significant colour differences.
01-31-2016, 12:22 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
OK, I understand.

As you probably know, the DNG preview is a JPEG image embedded into the DNG file - so, you take your RAW capture, the camera develops develops it into a JPEG using the colour settings you have selected (Bright, Natural, Portrait, Landscape, Vibrant etc.) and stores that JPEG along with the RAW capture data in the DNG file. But that embedded JPEG preview does not represent, in terms of colour reproduction, the RAW capture - it is a developed version of it using those selected colour settings. My recommendation, then, is to select the Natural colour setting, then edit the parameters for Natural so that Saturation, Hue, High / Low Key Adj and Contrast are all in the center. This will result in JPEGs (including those developed as previews for your RAW DNG captures) being as colour-neutral as possible when compared to the RAW image. Also make sure that you have any of the digital filters switched off, as these will also affect the embedded JPEG preview image. In Camera Raw, I would recommend using the Embedded colour profile as this is Pentax's own calibration for colour reproduction rather than Adobe Standard, which is just something that Adobe has come up with that should look OK with most cameras. Now, what you see in ACR should look very close to what you describe as the DNG preview (ie. the embedded JPEG preview image) - and you can start to edit the image in Photoshop to look like the in-camera colour settings / filters, if that's what you'd like to do. Do also bear in mind that if your PC / Mac screen is not colour calibrated (I use a ColorMunki Display device for this), you will also see quite significant colour differences.
Just installed DCU and the rendering (once I select the good profile, like "Bright") is far more accurate than Camera Raw.
Working with DCU on the other hand... I'm one step away from hitting my calibrated screen (I use Datacolor Spyder) with my keyboard.

Thank you for taking time to answer my problems ! I hope that I will find a way to reproduce the same colors in Camera RAW...
01-31-2016, 12:34 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by stefantuchila Quote
Just installed DCU and the rendering (once I select the good profile, like "Bright") is far more accurate than Camera Raw.
Working with DCU on the other hand... I'm one step away from hitting my calibrated screen (I use Datacolor Spyder) with my keyboard.

Thank you for taking time to answer my problems ! I hope that I will find a way to reproduce the same colors in Camera RAW...
Ha ha Yes, DCU takes a bit of getting used to.

Re Camera Raw, I'm not even sure it will have the range or specific algorithms to reproduce exactly what you get with Pentax's in-camera JPEG processing with those colour settings, no matter how much tweaking you do. You may find yourself better off processing for a neutral or natural result with Camera Raw, then using Photoshop to get the strong colour effects. Probably better still, let DCU give you the colour rendition you want (which will be extremely close to the in-camera JPEG / preview) and save as a TIFF to edit in Photoshop. Given how important the colour reproduction is to you, this might be the best way to go.
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