How do you make the most of dynamic range?

**jatrax** · 02-09-2016, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by alamo5000

another where it blinks red on the over exposed parts.

This is called the blinkies. I shoot so that I get just a few tiny blinkies in places that should be pure white. Snow on a mountain, white cloud etc. I usually shoot Av mode and use teh exposure comp button to adjust the exposure so I get a couple blinkies. That seems to produce very accurate exposures.

You should test that on your camera to see how much leeway you have during the develop process. It should be accurate and I've used the same system on k-5, k-5IIs and k-3II.

dtmateojr · 02-09-2016, 10:24 PM

1. avoid shooting in harsh light.
2. really. avoid shooting in harsh light.
3. if you really need to shoot in harsh light then learn to use the shadows to your advantage.
4. ETTR is obsolete. High ISO performance in cameras mean that they are very good at handling underexposure. So underexpose then push the shadows if you need to save the highlights.
5. avoid shooting in harsh light.

cali92rs · 02-09-2016, 10:39 PM

ETTR obsolete??
Not really. You push your ISO 100 shot 3 stops to get shadow detail and all of a sudden you get noise and low DR because in actuality it is ISO 800.

**jatrax** · 02-09-2016, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by dtmateojr

ETTR is obsolete. High ISO performance in cameras mean that they are very good at handling underexposure. So underexpose then push the shadows if you need to save the highlights.

Fortunately everyone is allowed an opinion and a workflow that suits them. If that works for you, great. I shot at ISO 400 once, the results were junk so I don't go over 200 anymore and stick to 100 if I can. Everyone has different standards.

**dms** · 02-09-2016, 11:06 PM

To get the most DR, It helps if you understand how exposure works, and IMO studying the zone system (as described by Ansel Adams) is still a good approach. After this you will understand how to meter the brightest areas and set the exposure accordingly. From there you can try with the camera to fine tune what the maximum exposure is w/o blowing highlights.

BTW if DR is very wide--you may want to blow the highlights--especially if they are already featureless white as in glare/reflections off of water, or if they are a small unimportant area. I think it is best to understand, instead of using some simpler rules. (Quant2325 earlier post has covered this and more!)

And BTW wide DR means lower iso--as you go to higher iso (especially around/above iso 1600 ) you typically lose about 1 stop for each doubling of iso. Shoot at lowest iso if widest DR is the whole issue.

dtmateojr · 02-09-2016, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by cali92rs

ETTR obsolete??
Not really. You push your ISO 100 shot 3 stops to get shadow detail and all of a sudden you get noise and low DR because in actuality it is ISO 800.

Overexpose by 3 stops and you would have blown the highlights. There's no data up there but there is always something hidden in the shadows. That's why cameras can now shoot natively at ISO 6400.

---------- Post added 02-10-16 at 16:52 ----------

Originally posted by jatrax

Fortunately everyone is allowed an opinion and a workflow that suits them. If that works for you, great. I shot at ISO 400 once, the results were junk so I don't go over 200 anymore and stick to 100 if I can. Everyone has different standards.

Underexposure does not mean shooting at high ISO but shooting at high ISO will always underexpose. See if you can figure out why.

cali92rs · 02-10-2016, 09:37 AM

Originally posted by dtmateojr

Overexpose by 3 stops and you would have blown the highlights. There's no data up there but there is always something hidden in the shadows. That's why cameras can now shoot natively at ISO 6400.

---------- Post added 02-10-16 at 16:52 ----------

Underexposure does not mean shooting at high ISO but shooting at high ISO will always underexpose. See if you can figure out why.

ETTR DOES NOT...DOES NOT...DOES NOT mean blowing out highlights.
It means setting your exposure as far to the right of your histogram as you can WITHOUT BLOWING OUT HIGHLIGHTS.

And no, there is not always data hidden in the shadows, that is what pure black means.

nomadkng · 02-10-2016, 10:29 AM

One thing no one has mentioned yet is Gradient Neutral Density filters.

When shooting scenes with huge EV variance, using a (or stacked) GND give me up to 6 stops of help controlling highlights. This in turn gives me up to 6 extra stops to keep shadows from going black. I consider them absolute must haves for sunset/sunrise images, but they have plenty of other applications for defined segment high contrast scenes.

Regarding ETTR, add my name to the kool aide drinking cult. From a mathematical perspective to a results oriented view, I can't imagine ever not shooting using ETTR principles. It would be like running Windows 3.1 on a 64 bit processor. You can, and you'd get decent results, but why would you?

**jatrax** · 02-10-2016, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by dtmateojr

Underexposure does not mean shooting at high ISO but shooting at high ISO will always underexpose.

I've no idea what you are trying to say. I indicated I do not use any ISO over 400, the results do not suit my needs. If you can use those settings, great. For me ETTR is not obsolete it is how I shoot for landscape whether I am shooting brackets for HDR or not. Apparently you have a different system and again, that's great.

dtmateojr · 02-10-2016, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by cali92rs

ETTR DOES NOT...DOES NOT...DOES NOT mean blowing out highlights.
It means setting your exposure as far to the right of your histogram as you can WITHOUT BLOWING OUT HIGHLIGHTS.

And no, there is not always data hidden in the shadows, that is what pure black means.

Can you give an example of conditions that will warrant ETTR?

nomadkng · 02-10-2016, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by dtmateojr

Can you give an example of conditions that will warrant ETTR?

How about: Every single image save high speed subject capture?

I'm going to assume you are very knowledgeable about ETTR concepts, including the bit arrangement of sensor data etc, so I'm not even going to get into the logic behind the technique.
Let's just agree to disagree.
If you are not highly informed of its premise, please do some research before attempting to troll a thread.

**dms** · 02-10-2016, 02:27 PM

An answer to: "Can you give an example of conditions that will warrant ETTR?

"

Any capture were you want the widest DR--for the chosen iso (and where other considerations are not paramount). In other words one useful answer to the OPs question.

dtmateojr · 02-10-2016, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by nomadkng

How about: Every single image save high speed subject capture?

I'm going to assume you are very knowledgeable about ETTR concepts, including the bit arrangement of sensor data etc, so I'm not even going to get into the logic behind the technique.

Let's just agree to disagree.

If you are not highly informed of its premise, please do some research before attempting to troll a thread.

I'm not trolling. You can't even give ONE specific example of when ETTR is warranted. You are only entitled to an opinion that you can defend.

mikeSF · 02-10-2016, 06:41 PM

I commonly blend two exposures such as a 0 and - 1.7 ev, using any number of techniques including manual blending, HDR, luminosity masks, blend if, etc.

The vast majority of my work uses HDR to some degree, & I am certainly a fan of subtle HDR.

02-09-2016, 11:06 PM	#20
dms Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: New York, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,192	To get the most DR, It helps if you understand how exposure works, and IMO studying the zone system (as described by Ansel Adams) is still a good approach. After this you will understand how to meter the brightest areas and set the exposure accordingly. From there you can try with the camera to fine tune what the maximum exposure is w/o blowing highlights. BTW if DR is very wide--you may want to blow the highlights--especially if they are already featureless white as in glare/reflections off of water, or if they are a small unimportant area. I think it is best to understand, instead of using some simpler rules. (Quant2325 earlier post has covered this and more!) And BTW wide DR means lower iso--as you go to higher iso (especially around/above iso 1600 ) you typically lose about 1 stop for each doubling of iso. Shoot at lowest iso if widest DR is the whole issue. Last edited by dms; 02-09-2016 at 11:27 PM. Reason: Added reference to an earlier post.

02-10-2016, 10:29 AM	#23
nomadkng Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,448	One thing no one has mentioned yet is Gradient Neutral Density filters. When shooting scenes with huge EV variance, using a (or stacked) GND give me up to 6 stops of help controlling highlights. This in turn gives me up to 6 extra stops to keep shadows from going black. I consider them absolute must haves for sunset/sunrise images, but they have plenty of other applications for defined segment high contrast scenes. Regarding ETTR, add my name to the kool aide drinking cult. From a mathematical perspective to a results oriented view, I can't imagine ever not shooting using ETTR principles. It would be like running Windows 3.1 on a 64 bit processor. You can, and you'd get decent results, but why would you? Last edited by nomadkng; 02-10-2016 at 10:35 AM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
AF.C behavior of the K-3 II; or, how to make the most of the AF system	bwDraco	Pentax K-3 & K-3 II	3	09-07-2015 02:11 AM
How do the dynamic range settings work?	Antonio Marques	Pentax Q	3	12-15-2014 02:21 AM
How do we compare Dynamic Range and Color Depth on picture?	rustynail925	Pentax DSLR Discussion	3	02-13-2012 07:07 AM
How do you get the tripod height just right, most effectively.	pcarfan	Pentax Camera and Field Accessories	2	02-14-2009 05:16 PM
High Dynamic Range - How do you do it?	MShawn63	Photographic Technique	32	01-11-2008 05:44 AM

02-09-2016, 10:09 PM	#16
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Originally posted by alamo5000 another where it blinks red on the over exposed parts. This is called the blinkies. I shoot so that I get just a few tiny blinkies in places that should be pure white. Snow on a mountain, white cloud etc. I usually shoot Av mode and use teh exposure comp button to adjust the exposure so I get a couple blinkies. That seems to produce very accurate exposures. You should test that on your camera to see how much leeway you have during the develop process. It should be accurate and I've used the same system on k-5, k-5IIs and k-3II.

02-09-2016, 10:24 PM	#17
dtmateojr Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Photos: Gallery Posts: 604	1. avoid shooting in harsh light. 2. really. avoid shooting in harsh light. 3. if you really need to shoot in harsh light then learn to use the shadows to your advantage. 4. ETTR is obsolete. High ISO performance in cameras mean that they are very good at handling underexposure. So underexpose then push the shadows if you need to save the highlights. 5. avoid shooting in harsh light.

02-09-2016, 10:39 PM	#18
cali92rs Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 3,354	ETTR obsolete?? Not really. You push your ISO 100 shot 3 stops to get shadow detail and all of a sudden you get noise and low DR because in actuality it is ISO 800.

02-09-2016, 10:59 PM	#19
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Originally posted by dtmateojr ETTR is obsolete. High ISO performance in cameras mean that they are very good at handling underexposure. So underexpose then push the shadows if you need to save the highlights. Fortunately everyone is allowed an opinion and a workflow that suits them. If that works for you, great. I shot at ISO 400 once, the results were junk so I don't go over 200 anymore and stick to 100 if I can. Everyone has different standards.

02-09-2016, 11:50 PM	#21
dtmateojr Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Photos: Gallery Posts: 604	Originally posted by cali92rs ETTR obsolete?? Not really. You push your ISO 100 shot 3 stops to get shadow detail and all of a sudden you get noise and low DR because in actuality it is ISO 800. Overexpose by 3 stops and you would have blown the highlights. There's no data up there but there is always something hidden in the shadows. That's why cameras can now shoot natively at ISO 6400. ---------- Post added 02-10-16 at 16:52 ---------- Originally posted by jatrax Fortunately everyone is allowed an opinion and a workflow that suits them. If that works for you, great. I shot at ISO 400 once, the results were junk so I don't go over 200 anymore and stick to 100 if I can. Everyone has different standards. Underexposure does not mean shooting at high ISO but shooting at high ISO will always underexpose. See if you can figure out why.

02-10-2016, 09:37 AM	#22
cali92rs Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 3,354	Originally posted by dtmateojr Overexpose by 3 stops and you would have blown the highlights. There's no data up there but there is always something hidden in the shadows. That's why cameras can now shoot natively at ISO 6400. ---------- Post added 02-10-16 at 16:52 ---------- Underexposure does not mean shooting at high ISO but shooting at high ISO will always underexpose. See if you can figure out why. ETTR DOES NOT...DOES NOT...DOES NOT mean blowing out highlights. It means setting your exposure as far to the right of your histogram as you can WITHOUT BLOWING OUT HIGHLIGHTS. And no, there is not always data hidden in the shadows, that is what pure black means.

02-10-2016, 10:31 AM	#24
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Originally posted by dtmateojr Underexposure does not mean shooting at high ISO but shooting at high ISO will always underexpose. I've no idea what you are trying to say. I indicated I do not use any ISO over 400, the results do not suit my needs. If you can use those settings, great. For me ETTR is not obsolete it is how I shoot for landscape whether I am shooting brackets for HDR or not. Apparently you have a different system and again, that's great.

02-10-2016, 01:56 PM	#25
dtmateojr Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Photos: Gallery Posts: 604	Originally posted by cali92rs ETTR DOES NOT...DOES NOT...DOES NOT mean blowing out highlights. It means setting your exposure as far to the right of your histogram as you can WITHOUT BLOWING OUT HIGHLIGHTS. And no, there is not always data hidden in the shadows, that is what pure black means. Can you give an example of conditions that will warrant ETTR?

02-10-2016, 02:05 PM	#26
nomadkng Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,448	Originally posted by dtmateojr Can you give an example of conditions that will warrant ETTR? How about: Every single image save high speed subject capture? I'm going to assume you are very knowledgeable about ETTR concepts, including the bit arrangement of sensor data etc, so I'm not even going to get into the logic behind the technique. Let's just agree to disagree. If you are not highly informed of its premise, please do some research before attempting to troll a thread.

02-10-2016, 02:27 PM	#27
dms Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: New York, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,192	An answer to: "Can you give an example of conditions that will warrant ETTR? " Any capture were you want the widest DR--for the chosen iso (and where other considerations are not paramount). In other words one useful answer to the OPs question.

02-10-2016, 04:18 PM	#28
dtmateojr Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Photos: Gallery Posts: 604	Originally posted by nomadkng How about: Every single image save high speed subject capture? I'm going to assume you are very knowledgeable about ETTR concepts, including the bit arrangement of sensor data etc, so I'm not even going to get into the logic behind the technique. Let's just agree to disagree. If you are not highly informed of its premise, please do some research before attempting to troll a thread. I'm not trolling. You can't even give ONE specific example of when ETTR is warranted. You are only entitled to an opinion that you can defend.

02-10-2016, 06:41 PM	#29
mikeSF Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: East Bay Area, CA Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,622	I commonly blend two exposures such as a 0 and - 1.7 ev, using any number of techniques including manual blending, HDR, luminosity masks, blend if, etc. The vast majority of my work uses HDR to some degree, & I am certainly a fan of subtle HDR.