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07-10-2016, 10:59 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by victormeldrew Quote
If you were in the EU, consumer law states that a product should perform as a 'reasonable person' would expect. Regardless of what the company tries to enforce via its warranty terms, if a judge rules that a reasonable person would expect a weather resistant camera to keep the rain out (as I would, myself) then they would uphold a claim for a refund. You would need to pay the court fee to hear the case, but this would be refunded by the loser.

The biggest issue here is proving that the water was really caused by rain and not by submersion, and there is no real way to prove that...

No, I'm afraid the biggest issue Victor is that a judge would need to see if an advertised accepted standard of waterproofing was not achieved by the product.


The bad news is that there is one, and almost no camera manufacturer dares to follow it - some of the phone manufacturers do:


IPX rating guide ? Nitecore Singapore | The most advanced precision made flashlights in the world

07-11-2016, 02:52 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
No, I'm afraid the biggest issue Victor is that a judge would need to see if an advertised accepted standard of waterproofing was not achieved by the product.
The bad news is that there is one, and almost no camera manufacturer dares to follow it - some of the phone manufacturers do:
IPX rating guide ? Nitecore Singapore | The most advanced precision made flashlights in the world
Here, I could win that in the Disputes Tribunal - easily. The consumer Guarantee Act states very clearly that an item needs to be fit for it's intended purpose. With all the claims Pentax has made over the years as to weather sealing, I'd have no problem arguing and winning that point. Plus, I need only bring the case in my jurisdiction so Pentax-Ricoh would have to front up, in my home town. If they don't show, even easier. And best of all, Disputes Tribunal covers cases up to $20,000, so no difficulty there. Cost to bring case is a few hundred only.
07-11-2016, 03:19 AM   #33
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Yes, the same here with the Consumer Protection Act. Consumers are not expected to be engineers or understand IP ratings or to have access to a company's design decisions, or even to know their return terms before purchase. All that matters is the marketing claim made by the company and what a reasonable person would expect that to mean. I think it would be easy enough to argue that a reasonable person would expect a camera claimed to be 'weather resistant' ought to be ok after a few hours of rain. That's hardly an unreasonable expectation.
07-11-2016, 03:26 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by victormeldrew Quote
Yes, the same here with the Consumer Protection Act. Consumers are not expected to be engineers or understand IP ratings or to have access to a company's design decisions, or even to know their return terms before purchase. All that matters is the marketing claim made by the company and what a reasonable person would expect that to mean. I think it would be easy enough to argue that a reasonable person would expect a camera claimed to be 'weather resistant' ought to be ok after a few hours of rain. That's hardly an unreasonable expectation.
Well, good luck with that if it happens!

If the camera manufacturers have lost such a case, I've not heard it.

The warranty explicitly says water damage is not covered.



07-11-2016, 04:50 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
The warranty explicitly says water damage is not covered.
And under the Consumer Guarantee Act it does not need to. It's all got to do with a reasonable expectation that, of you buy something with ten gazillion weather seals, that your expectation would be that it can keep the weather out, especially if their own marketing images shows lots of water.

See, for instance: https://shop-uk.ricoh-imaging.eu/media/wysiwyg/Home_slider/Products/K-3II/banner_k3II.jpg
And: http://www.ricoh-imaging.eu/media/b90a8afec2b21b566907ecdddc665af7/K3-banner-with-EISA-TIPA.jpg
07-11-2016, 04:58 AM   #36
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This is why, here in NZ, it's unwise to buy an extended warrantee for a product. Say I bought a new dishwasher. It may have a 1 year / 3 year warranty, depending on the make. The retailer will often try to sell an extended warranty. These are a waste of money because the Disputes Tribunal will agree that a reasonable expectation, under fair use, would mean that a dishwasher should last 7 years minimum. So, if, in 4 years time, it fails, I'd win the case.

I used this principle recently when our hot water cylinder's element failed 9 months outside the warranty. They first offered to sell me a new element. I simply had to say: "No, I believe, under the Consumer Guarantee Act you should send me a replacement element free of charge." The immediate response was: "What's your courier address?"
07-11-2016, 05:34 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Well, good luck with that if it happens!
It happens a lot. I don't know whether this specific case has been heard, and like I said it would be hard to prove that the camera was not submerged (although Pentax would need to provide compelling evidence that it was), but there are thousands of cases of warranty terms being overturned in court because of these laws. Warranty terms cannot contravene laws, so any terms that are contrary to consumer law are null and void.

Different countries have different legislation however, and EU consumer protection laws are extremely strict - and I know that many countries have much less protection (judging by your reaction, yours included). I'm surprised though that, as a consumer, you are so content to be sold a product and just lose your money when it doesn't do what the manufacturer said...and this case is quite clear - they called it 'weather resistant', weather happened, camera didn't resist. Simple really. The fact that they bury a clause that contradicts this claim in the warranty (that's inside the box you haven't bought yet) is irrelevant to a purchasing decision... at the time of entering the contract all you have to go on is the marketing claim.
07-11-2016, 07:43 AM   #38
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Looking at the photos of the 4 hour hike, I see the people all wearing rain gear. Just taking a simple plastic bag to cover the camera with, in adverse conditions would help immensely. WR may not apply to 4 hours in rain. "Weather resistant" does not mean waterproof. I'm assuming the camera was hanging straight down while hiking; this would expose the card door more so to moisture entering.

I also have insurance on all of my camera equipment, but do take care that hopefully I'll never need to use it.

I sincerely hope your camera does come back to life, and you can enjoy using it for many years to come!

07-11-2016, 11:18 AM   #39
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I do not know for k3II, but I have inspected in details the water-sealing of my k-30 and all I can say is that I would not take it out on the prolonged rain, but it would probably survive some time outside in the wet conditions (not too windy and not too humid).
On my unit, I've found several 0.2 to 1 mm gaps in gasket coverage between the panels and a displaced gasket around the speaker. Also, I imagine a loose screw somewhere or a dust speck on the card door can ruin the sealing as well. That being said, if the water would penetrate the SD card door on my k-30, the water access to the rest of the circuitry would be easy and I suspect that the motherboard replacement is the likely road to go after that. At the same time it can be a simple 5min soldering job.
Given the magnitude of the problems experienced here by Greenneck, I would say that the first one is more likely.
As I was obliged to repair all of my Pentax cameras (k-x, k110d, k-30), some several times, I was considering K3II as a potential purchase and I would like to know the aftermath of this case once known and especially the service report if repaired at some point.

Regards, Marko
07-11-2016, 05:06 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by victormeldrew Quote
I don't know whether this specific case has been heard.
We've already had people kill their cameras with water in this forum, Victor, and none of those threads ever ended up with someone going to court, let alone winning the case.

You can browbeat your distributor, they might replace your unit as a customer relations exercise, but there'd be no legal order to do it.

The Apple Watch is IPX7 rated, btw. The Nikon, Canon and Pentax DSLRs are not, AFAIK - even the high-end, outdoors D4 and 1DX.

I urge everyone in rain to keep their cameras, lenses and any other electronics in bags until actually taking a shot, and even then use some kind of wrap if the picture has to happen in the open. Don't zoom!

Last edited by clackers; 07-11-2016 at 05:12 PM.
07-11-2016, 05:10 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
especially if their own marketing images shows lots of water.
To be honest, Mark, who would call advertisers on their images?

We all have sceptism about ads ... if I put a darkening agent in my hair I will have to fight off girls in bars wanting to date me - can't a guy order a beer without being molested?
07-11-2016, 05:43 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
To be honest, Mark, who would call advertisers on their images?

We all have sceptism about ads ... if I put a darkening agent in my hair I will have to fight off girls in bars wanting to date me - can't a guy order a beer without being molested?
I don't want to know about your success with the ladies, Clackers!

But this is for sure - those wet K-3 photos will do very nicely to convince a Disputes Tribunal. And I've won much harder disputes, for bigger sums. So, something like this will be walk in the park.
07-12-2016, 07:00 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
To be honest, Mark, who would call advertisers on their images?
Well, here it would be the Advertising Standards Authority...

But regardless of your chances in court - which is very location dependent, and here I would be confident of winning my money back if Pentax even bothered contesting it - we all know that the weather resistance is usually pretty good. We all know of cameras that have survived terrible conditions of all types from rain to dust to snow to waterfalls. This camera (if it really did just suffer some rain) has clearly fallen short of the norm and has something wrong. If Pentax refuses to ever entertain fixing the damage where the weather seals have failed, then they are not warranting the seals against manufacturing faults, which is something they must do by law in even the most lax juristictions.

How can you ever know a weather seal has failed unless water gets in, at which point they tell you your warranty is void because water has got in? They should at least test that the seals are all in place and working before failing to honour the warranty.

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07-12-2016, 07:46 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by victormeldrew Quote
They should at least test that the seals are all in place and working before failing to honour the warranty.
Do we know this was not done?
07-12-2016, 05:24 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
But this is for sure - those wet K-3 photos will do very nicely to convince a Disputes Tribunal. And I've won much harder disputes, for bigger sums. So, something like this will be walk in the park.

I think you need to go into bat for the OP as his customer advocate and paralegal, Mark.


Your business card should of course read, "Jerling, Jerling and Jerling Pty Ltd - almost a law firm"!
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