K-3 shutter shake at and around 1/100s

HarisF1 · 10-26-2016, 09:53 AM

Hi guys, I've been shooting with my K-3 for 16 months now and I've loved (almost) every moment with it. In the recent few months however, I've started to notice a bit of strange behaviour when shooting at speeds of 1/100s. The images come out with a bit of double vision or slightly blurred.

Now reading up about it, there are a load of topics about FF/BF issues but I've calibrated all of my lenses (and also use MF) yet this still occurs. I can upload a couple of images later but for the moment I simply delete the blurred images. Shooting at 1/100 and 1/80s causes the blurring but any faster or any slower is generally fine.

Is there a fix for this kind of issue or do I have to live with it? I'm quite an impatient guy when it comes to dodgy tech so forgive me if I come across as such

Best Regards

photolady95 · 10-26-2016, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by HarisF1

Is there a fix for this kind of issue

Tripod. With SR turned off.

normhead · 10-26-2016, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by photolady95

Tripod. With SR turned off.

What to you think we are shooting with? Glass plates?

stevebrot · 10-26-2016, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by HarisF1

The images come out with a bit of double vision or slightly blurred.

No, there has not been any reported issues with mirror slap/shake/resonance at particular speeds on the K-3 that I am aware of, though your query may trigger some short tests by users on this site who both own the camera and have the appropriate instrumentation.

As noted by photolady95 above, camera motion is the most likely cause and the most likely root cause is user technique for handheld shots. In the first few months after the K-3 debuted, there were numerous complaints from experienced users regarding general image sharpness when compared to their results from the K-5 or other Pentax 16Mpx cameras. The general consensus as the user base expanded was that the higher resolution 24Mpx sensor was exposing flaws in technique that were masked on the earlier model cameras.

I have been shooting with my K-3 for almost three years now and I still have to take a moment to remember that critical sharpness handheld requires attention to breathing, bracing, and smoothness on the shutter release, even with SR engaged.*

Steve

* There is a small cadre of users on this site who feel strongly that SR softens their handheld results over certain shutter speed ranges. Their experience is not mine, but that does not mean they are wrong. Perhaps you might be having a similar experience.

JinDesu · 10-26-2016, 11:01 AM

I think what Photolady is saying is to put it on a tripod, set it at the troublesome shutter speeds, turn off SR, use a remote or something - and then take a shot. If it's still blurry, then something is wrong with your camera.

normhead · 10-26-2016, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by JinDesu

I think what Photolady is saying is to put it on a tripod, set it at the troublesome shutter speeds, turn off SR, use a remote or something - and then take a shot. If it's still blurry, then something is wrong with your camera.

Ah ha, someone with a plan. I always like plans.

photolady95 · 10-26-2016, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by JinDesu

I think what Photolady is saying is to put it on a tripod, set it at the troublesome shutter speeds, turn off SR, use a remote or something - and then take a shot.

Exactly what I meant. Some people just don't get it!

stevebrot · 10-26-2016, 11:15 AM

FWIW, I just did a retrospective look-see of my last month's shooting (~300 shots) and did full-resolution evaluation of all photos taken at 1/80s and 1/100s. There was no clear pattern of subtle camera motion such as is typical of shutter-induced vibration. Some had gross camera motion and a few others had obvious misfocus, but no short linear smears or ghosting.

Steve

Murfy · 10-26-2016, 11:25 AM

I had a lot of difficulties with my K3 at first, and I do feel it is the 24mpx picking up every little movement. I went from a nikon d200, so that is what 10 or 16? testing on a tripod with delay timer or remote like suggested above.

**othar** · 10-26-2016, 11:37 AM

I sometimes get blurred pictures at relatively high shutterspeeds when I shoot many pictures in a row without giving SR enough time to activate between the shots. If your shutterspeeds are high enough either deactivate SR or leave more time between your shots.
This worked at least for me

**dms** · 10-26-2016, 12:06 PM

1/100 sec is often in the area where mirror bounce has an effect. I recall the Nikon F was bad at that speed. Roughly 1/30 to 1/100 sec are areas one may have concern--as I recall.

You can also look up the usual remedies for this. They include: mirror lockup/mirror up on 10 sec timer (its 2 sec timer now on dslr's), sand bag or other added mass on the camera body/lock down on tripod (= added mass)/even holding it with fleshy pads of hands surrounding and pressing on the camera helps--anything to add mass/inertia.

HarisF1 · 10-26-2016, 01:29 PM

Thanks for the responses. When I first noticed the issue I tried different ways of mitigating the shaking including MUP, bracing, and removing the SR function. Out of these, the MUP function had the greatest impact. I will try and replicate it using a tripod just to be completely sure.

I first noticed it when using my DA35/2.8 lens. The sharpness wide open was so much better than the sharpness at f/8. Upon zooming into the image I saw the 'double vision' effect for the f/8 images. I went to Paris recently and noticed the same issue with other images taken at 1/100s or thereabouts. Slower shots don't show this issue. That's why it felt bizarre enough to start a new thread.

stevebrot · 10-26-2016, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by HarisF1

I first noticed it when using my DA35/2.8 lens. The sharpness wide open was so much better than the sharpness at f/8. Upon zooming into the image I saw the 'double vision' effect for the f/8 images.

So, this happens with other lenses too?

Steve

Adam · 10-26-2016, 09:54 PM

This "issue" affects pretty much every DSLR to some extent. With the K-1, blur was so noticeable at times that Pentax rolled out the electronic front curtain shutter feature in live view. With the K-3 you should be able to get away with shooting at the problematic shutter speeds, but if you're seeing blur then the best thing to do would be to just adjust the shutter speed by a stop or so.

Note that shutter/mirror-induced blur is not to be confused with blur due to improper technique, shaky hands, a poor lens, or an unstable tripod.

**Alex645** · 10-27-2016, 01:23 AM

Would love to see posted same subject RAW examples at 1/100" as well as 1/50" and 1/200". I have always worked with the general rule (sans SR/VR/IS) that the minimum shutter speed should be a fraction of the focal length when handheld of static subjects. So to avoid blur at 35mm, use a shutter speed at or above 1/35" such as 1/40" or 1/45".

However, I have read technical articles where camera engineers detect internal vibrations from the mirror slap and shutter shock with a minimum shutter speed of 1/250" to eliminate it. This is of course grain or pixel peeping, but nevertheless worth noting if resolution and sharpness matters. Because of this, my default for the Sunny 16 rule at ISO 100 is usually not f/16 @ 1/100" but f/8 @ 1/400"....assuming a particular DOF and motion blur is not required. I call it the Sunny 8 times 4 rule.

10-26-2016, 09:53 AM	#1
HarisF1 Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 543	K-3 shutter shake at and around 1/100s Hi guys, I've been shooting with my K-3 for 16 months now and I've loved (almost) every moment with it. In the recent few months however, I've started to notice a bit of strange behaviour when shooting at speeds of 1/100s. The images come out with a bit of double vision or slightly blurred. Now reading up about it, there are a load of topics about FF/BF issues but I've calibrated all of my lenses (and also use MF) yet this still occurs. I can upload a couple of images later but for the moment I simply delete the blurred images. Shooting at 1/100 and 1/80s causes the blurring but any faster or any slower is generally fine. Is there a fix for this kind of issue or do I have to live with it? I'm quite an impatient guy when it comes to dodgy tech so forgive me if I come across as such Best Regards

10-26-2016, 12:06 PM	#11
dms Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: New York, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,192	1/100 sec is often in the area where mirror bounce has an effect. I recall the Nikon F was bad at that speed. Roughly 1/30 to 1/100 sec are areas one may have concern--as I recall. You can also look up the usual remedies for this. They include: mirror lockup/mirror up on 10 sec timer (its 2 sec timer now on dslr's), sand bag or other added mass on the camera body/lock down on tripod (= added mass)/even holding it with fleshy pads of hands surrounding and pressing on the camera helps--anything to add mass/inertia. Last edited by dms; 10-26-2016 at 12:12 PM.

10-26-2016, 09:54 PM	#14
Adam Administrator Site Webmaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 51,595	This "issue" affects pretty much every DSLR to some extent. With the K-1, blur was so noticeable at times that Pentax rolled out the electronic front curtain shutter feature in live view. With the K-3 you should be able to get away with shooting at the problematic shutter speeds, but if you're seeing blur then the best thing to do would be to just adjust the shutter speed by a stop or so. Note that shutter/mirror-induced blur is not to be confused with blur due to improper technique, shaky hands, a poor lens, or an unstable tripod. Adam PentaxForums.com Webmaster (Site Usage Guide \| Site Help \| My Photography) PentaxForums.com server and development costs are user-supported. You can help cover these costs by donating or purchasing one of our Pentax eBooks. Or, buy your photo gear from our affiliates, Adorama, B&H Photo, KEH, or Topaz Labs, and get FREE Marketplace access - click here to see how! Trusted Pentax retailers:

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10-26-2016, 10:13 AM	#2
photolady95 Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: May 2009 Location: Cruising the forum watching his back Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,712	Originally posted by HarisF1 Is there a fix for this kind of issue Tripod. With SR turned off.

10-26-2016, 10:44 AM	#3
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by photolady95 Tripod. With SR turned off. What to you think we are shooting with? Glass plates?

10-26-2016, 10:53 AM	#4
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by HarisF1 The images come out with a bit of double vision or slightly blurred. No, there has not been any reported issues with mirror slap/shake/resonance at particular speeds on the K-3 that I am aware of, though your query may trigger some short tests by users on this site who both own the camera and have the appropriate instrumentation. As noted by photolady95 above, camera motion is the most likely cause and the most likely root cause is user technique for handheld shots. In the first few months after the K-3 debuted, there were numerous complaints from experienced users regarding general image sharpness when compared to their results from the K-5 or other Pentax 16Mpx cameras. The general consensus as the user base expanded was that the higher resolution 24Mpx sensor was exposing flaws in technique that were masked on the earlier model cameras. I have been shooting with my K-3 for almost three years now and I still have to take a moment to remember that critical sharpness handheld requires attention to breathing, bracing, and smoothness on the shutter release, even with SR engaged.* Steve * There is a small cadre of users on this site who feel strongly that SR softens their handheld results over certain shutter speed ranges. Their experience is not mine, but that does not mean they are wrong. Perhaps you might be having a similar experience.

10-26-2016, 11:01 AM	#5
JinDesu Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: New York City Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,638	I think what Photolady is saying is to put it on a tripod, set it at the troublesome shutter speeds, turn off SR, use a remote or something - and then take a shot. If it's still blurry, then something is wrong with your camera.

10-26-2016, 11:05 AM	#6
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by JinDesu I think what Photolady is saying is to put it on a tripod, set it at the troublesome shutter speeds, turn off SR, use a remote or something - and then take a shot. If it's still blurry, then something is wrong with your camera. Ah ha, someone with a plan. I always like plans.

10-26-2016, 11:10 AM	#7
photolady95 Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: May 2009 Location: Cruising the forum watching his back Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,712	Originally posted by JinDesu I think what Photolady is saying is to put it on a tripod, set it at the troublesome shutter speeds, turn off SR, use a remote or something - and then take a shot. Exactly what I meant. Some people just don't get it!

10-26-2016, 11:15 AM	#8
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	FWIW, I just did a retrospective look-see of my last month's shooting (~300 shots) and did full-resolution evaluation of all photos taken at 1/80s and 1/100s. There was no clear pattern of subtle camera motion such as is typical of shutter-induced vibration. Some had gross camera motion and a few others had obvious misfocus, but no short linear smears or ghosting. Steve

10-26-2016, 11:25 AM	#9
Murfy Veteran Member Join Date: May 2014 Photos: Gallery Posts: 803	I had a lot of difficulties with my K3 at first, and I do feel it is the 24mpx picking up every little movement. I went from a nikon d200, so that is what 10 or 16? testing on a tripod with delay timer or remote like suggested above.

10-26-2016, 11:37 AM	#10
othar Site Supporter Join Date: May 2014 Location: Linz Photos: Albums Posts: 3,098	I sometimes get blurred pictures at relatively high shutterspeeds when I shoot many pictures in a row without giving SR enough time to activate between the shots. If your shutterspeeds are high enough either deactivate SR or leave more time between your shots. This worked at least for me

10-26-2016, 01:29 PM	#12
HarisF1 Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 543 Original Poster	Thanks for the responses. When I first noticed the issue I tried different ways of mitigating the shaking including MUP, bracing, and removing the SR function. Out of these, the MUP function had the greatest impact. I will try and replicate it using a tripod just to be completely sure. I first noticed it when using my DA35/2.8 lens. The sharpness wide open was so much better than the sharpness at f/8. Upon zooming into the image I saw the 'double vision' effect for the f/8 images. I went to Paris recently and noticed the same issue with other images taken at 1/100s or thereabouts. Slower shots don't show this issue. That's why it felt bizarre enough to start a new thread.

10-26-2016, 06:20 PM	#13
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by HarisF1 I first noticed it when using my DA35/2.8 lens. The sharpness wide open was so much better than the sharpness at f/8. Upon zooming into the image I saw the 'double vision' effect for the f/8 images. So, this happens with other lenses too? Steve

10-27-2016, 01:23 AM	#15
Alex645 Site Supporter Join Date: May 2015 Location: Kaneohe, HI Photos: Albums Posts: 3,526	Would love to see posted same subject RAW examples at 1/100" as well as 1/50" and 1/200". I have always worked with the general rule (sans SR/VR/IS) that the minimum shutter speed should be a fraction of the focal length when handheld of static subjects. So to avoid blur at 35mm, use a shutter speed at or above 1/35" such as 1/40" or 1/45". However, I have read technical articles where camera engineers detect internal vibrations from the mirror slap and shutter shock with a minimum shutter speed of 1/250" to eliminate it. This is of course grain or pixel peeping, but nevertheless worth noting if resolution and sharpness matters. Because of this, my default for the Sunny 16 rule at ISO 100 is usually not f/16 @ 1/100" but f/8 @ 1/400"....assuming a particular DOF and motion blur is not required. I call it the Sunny 8 times 4 rule.