Bug in K-1 firmware... (camera lockup for 10 - 20sec)

pathdoc · 12-18-2016, 04:20 PM

How many RAW pics are you shooting that you can process and upload them all to your client in FIVE MINUTES?

biz-engineer · 12-18-2016, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by pathdoc

How easy is that card-to-card transfer in-camera? If I want to process raw files in camera (as I currently do with the K-5 for some single-in shots), am I able to choose which card the processed JPGs go to?

Yes. It is possible to move any file or complete folder from SD1 to SD2 or from SD2 to SD1, Raw or Jpeg doesn't matter.

tcom · 12-19-2016, 03:13 AM

Besides the tight schedules, it happens to me also to cover several events on a single day. In order to keep post processing time as effective as possible, I adapted my workflow and it includes deleting photos right on the camera even in the shortest breaks. When a musician has the eyes closed, not good expression on face or simply badly exposed, or an athlete just turned the face away from the camera, there is simply nothing in post processing which can be done to save the photo, so WHY should I keep the photo on the card, just to waste time?

Anyway, my question was not about my workflow but to find out if I am the only one with the issue.

**ffking** · 12-19-2016, 05:25 AM

Originally posted by tcom

Anyway, my question was not about my workflow but to find out if I am the only one with the issue.

I think the answer to that is that you are probably not the only one, but your circumstances are unusual - namely, that you work in a high pressure environment (the vast majority of users don't) and you developed a workflow appropriate to another system that, for whatever reason, Pentax, isn't suited to - that cuts the field down still further - but there are working pros here, like @kenspo who cover concerts with K-1s - it might be interesting to see how he handles the situation?

**BigMackCam** · 12-19-2016, 06:31 AM

Originally posted by Adam

Well the way the K-1 (or any Pentax) deletes files is weird to begin with. With the other brands I've tried, there's no wait or progress bar after deleting. On the Pentax, sometimes it can take a second or two before the file finishes deleting.

Just an FYI, but my Hasselblad HV (Sony A99) and Sony A7II also show a progress bar when deleting photos. With a single photo it jumps immediately to show the progress bar as completed (although it does take a fraction of a second to do this), but when deleting multiple photos it takes a little longer...

tcom · 12-19-2016, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by ffking

I think the answer to that is that you are probably not the only one, but your circumstances are unusual - namely, that you work in a high pressure environment (the vast majority of users don't) and you developed a workflow appropriate to another system that, for whatever reason, Pentax, isn't suited to - that cuts the field down still further - but there are working pros here, like @kenspo who cover concerts with K-1s - it might be interesting to see how he handles the situation?

At the moment, my issue is not that the K-1 is unable to delete photos while still writing data to the card. My problem is that I have got used to work like this and now, whenever I decide on using the K-1, I regularly lock the camera.

I would really welcome if the camera would prevent the user from deleting photos while there is still data in the buffer, ie. by greying out the delete button on the gui. At least, I won't be able to lock the camera.

stevebrot · 12-19-2016, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by tcom

I would really welcome if the camera would prevent the user from deleting photos while there is still data in the buffer, ie. by greying out the delete button on the gui. At least, I won't be able to lock the camera.

The orange "card access" indicator lamp on the back of the camera might be helpful to you. If that light is lit the camera is writing to the card.

Steve

**manishved** · 12-20-2016, 03:11 PM

Great time to buy some high speed SD Cards and yes, of course, no better time to change your habits

tcom · 12-20-2016, 11:20 PM

I don't think that 300MB/s ExtremePro SDXC cards are the bottleneck on a K-1, @manishved. They are way faster than what the K-1 is able to deliver.

I expect from a DSLR to take a photo whenever the shutter is pressed, given of course the camera is powered up and there is still enough space on memory card and buffer. The K-1 and K-3 II are the only cameras I used over the past 10 years (and these are quite a few) I am able to lockup. Ricoh really developped a unique selling point with the latest camera generation...

Anyway, for the time being, I will not change my habits and cover events using my other gear. The next firmware update will decide if I buy a second K-1 or sell it.

bigdavephoto · 12-21-2016, 03:01 PM

tcom, I don't want to sound like I am talking back to you in anyway but I think you have worked your way into a circle with no way out. Take a breath, have a cup of joe, or something harder if you drink liquor and hear me out.

Please hear me out. I think you are wanting the camera to do something you, yourself need to do. After reading through what you have said, this is what I am getting you are saying.

Camera locks up because you are deleting photos while buffer is writing photos to card --> Buffer is writing photos to card while you review and delete bad photos --> Camera locks up because you are deleting photos while buffer is writing photos to card. -->You get upset because camera is NOT graying out delete button while buffer is writing to card --> Goes back to shooting pictures --> quick to review and delete bad photos --> Camera locks up because you are deleting photos while buffer is writing photos to card.

Do you see what sort of circle you are in?

My question to you is, how does Pentax changing the delete button to being greyed out change your work flow? Wouldn't that be the same as what stevebrot suggested. If the delete button is greyed out or you wait for the memory access light to stop flashing, wouldn't that be less time then waiting for the camera to unlock before you can take some more pictures?

I understand you are working with a very tight time limit. I also feel, you would gain time if instead of deleting photos in camera, you delete after submitting what you need to. Yeah, I agree, instead of 50 pictures to decide on the best from, you might have 200 pictures to decide from. Because you didn't say much about where you are working, I am thinking it is a daily newspaper, just remember, they are not necessary looking for the best of the best of the best, they just need a photo or two to prove the point.

tcom · 12-21-2016, 03:43 PM

An LED going out for 2-3 seconds before it goes on again is not really a useful information to know if the camera finished to write the buffer to the card or not.

Until the Pentax K-3, it was not possible to review the photos taken before they were written on the card, it was not possible to lock the camera. With the K-3 II and K-1, you have full control on the user interface and are able to delete photos, locking the camera.

On a typical event, when using Nikon gear, I delete around 60-75% of the photos right on the spot. Of course I could delete the photos after having submitted a selection of the best ones to the medias and news photo agencies. But believe me, importing and reviewing 600 photos to Lightroom instead of 2000 makes a huge difference in time.

With Pentax gear (upto K-3), I don't delete as many photos, the main reason is not that I have to wait until the buffer is empty before being able to delete, but because I use the Pentax gear in lesser demanding conditions. Typically events such as figure ice skating, indoor volleyball in badly light venues or rock concerts are the domains where I definitely favor Nikon. The K-1 has however improved in many areas and I would really like to use it also for more demanding events, but this issue is definitely a killer point.

But with the K-1, I try to wait for the LED to go out, hit delete and the LED goes on again and the camera is locked for 10-20 seconds.

**BigMackCam** · 12-22-2016, 01:24 AM

@tcom - perhaps this has already been mentioned earlier in the thread, but have you flagged your issue to Ricoh via our Ask Ricoh Imaging Support facility?

A potential improvement would be for the camera to allow images to be flagged for deletion when data in the buffer is being written to the cards, followed by a background process to delete the flagged photos once they have been completely written. Whilst not a trivial change to the existing firmware, it's not a particularly complicated development. Perhaps Ricoh would consider adding something like this to a future firmware release...

tcom · 12-22-2016, 09:23 AM

Yes, I posted the issue also in the "Ask Ricoh Imaging Support" part, they are already aware of the problem, but as long I am the only one complaining, the priority is most probably not high enough to get a solution.

Your suggestion would be a solution as well and it does not seem as if it would require much effort. Another solution could be if the photographer could rate the photos, but that's probably too much to ask at the price level of the K-1.

sunCrm · 01-19-2017, 02:20 AM

Hi tcom,

I`m not able to find it on Ask Ricoh section to support it there, as this thing also "grinds my gear". Fortunately my camera does not lock up to the point where I need re-start with battery, but it takes humongous time to delete an image. (this issues is also reported in this CZ review, you are welcome to translate to your language - Pentax K-1 ? recenze | Marek Musil foto ) And yes - i`m used to exact flow as you are - I want to delete an image (if i do not like it) right after taking it. It was never and issue with my K5, and I got used to this way freeing some space on my card. And yes - it is annoying i cant do what Pentax got me used to in the first place. (Using Sandisk Extreme Pro 64gb)

tcom · 01-20-2017, 01:19 AM

Originally posted by sunCrm

Hi tcom,

I`m not able to find it on Ask Ricoh section to support it there, as this thing also "grinds my gear". Fortunately my camera does not lock up to the point where I need re-start with battery, but it takes humongous time to delete an image. (this issues is also reported in this CZ review, you are welcome to translate to your language - Pentax K-1 ? recenze | Marek Musil foto ) And yes - i`m used to exact flow as you are - I want to delete an image (if i do not like it) right after taking it. It was never and issue with my K5, and I got used to this way freeing some space on my card. And yes - it is annoying i cant do what Pentax got me used to in the first place. (Using Sandisk Extreme Pro 64gb)

Hi sunCrm

There has been no reaction at all to the thread in the Ask Ricoh section, and it seems to have been removed now from that section.

Thankfully I never needed to re-start with the battery neither, it is just that the hardware of the camera is unable to do what the firmware allows, so deleting and writing to the card is not performed in parallel, but sequentialized, locking the camera for 10-20 seconds. I thought it would have been an easy fix in the firmware in simply not allowing the deletion while there are still data to be processed, but four firmware updates did not bring any improvement.

For the time being, I am not buying a second K-1 which I badly need if I want to cover events for the press with the K-1 as long as this behavior remains. I am really considering in a first step selling only the K-1 and if the next generation cameras still feature the bug, that would be time to close my 25-year adventure with Pentax and sell all lenses as well.

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12-18-2016, 04:20 PM	#16
pathdoc Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2015 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,381	How many RAW pics are you shooting that you can process and upload them all to your client in FIVE MINUTES?

12-18-2016, 11:22 PM	#17
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,231	Originally posted by pathdoc How easy is that card-to-card transfer in-camera? If I want to process raw files in camera (as I currently do with the K-5 for some single-in shots), am I able to choose which card the processed JPGs go to? Yes. It is possible to move any file or complete folder from SD1 to SD2 or from SD2 to SD1, Raw or Jpeg doesn't matter.

12-19-2016, 03:13 AM	#18
tcom Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Switzerland Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,293 Original Poster	Besides the tight schedules, it happens to me also to cover several events on a single day. In order to keep post processing time as effective as possible, I adapted my workflow and it includes deleting photos right on the camera even in the shortest breaks. When a musician has the eyes closed, not good expression on face or simply badly exposed, or an athlete just turned the face away from the camera, there is simply nothing in post processing which can be done to save the photo, so WHY should I keep the photo on the card, just to waste time? Anyway, my question was not about my workflow but to find out if I am the only one with the issue.

12-19-2016, 05:25 AM	#19
ffking Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Old South Wales Posts: 6,038	Originally posted by tcom Anyway, my question was not about my workflow but to find out if I am the only one with the issue. I think the answer to that is that you are probably not the only one, but your circumstances are unusual - namely, that you work in a high pressure environment (the vast majority of users don't) and you developed a workflow appropriate to another system that, for whatever reason, Pentax, isn't suited to - that cuts the field down still further - but there are working pros here, like @kenspo who cover concerts with K-1s - it might be interesting to see how he handles the situation?

12-19-2016, 06:31 AM	#20
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,669	Originally posted by Adam Well the way the K-1 (or any Pentax) deletes files is weird to begin with. With the other brands I've tried, there's no wait or progress bar after deleting. On the Pentax, sometimes it can take a second or two before the file finishes deleting. Just an FYI, but my Hasselblad HV (Sony A99) and Sony A7II also show a progress bar when deleting photos. With a single photo it jumps immediately to show the progress bar as completed (although it does take a fraction of a second to do this), but when deleting multiple photos it takes a little longer...

12-19-2016, 07:03 AM	#21
tcom Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Switzerland Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,293 Original Poster	Originally posted by ffking I think the answer to that is that you are probably not the only one, but your circumstances are unusual - namely, that you work in a high pressure environment (the vast majority of users don't) and you developed a workflow appropriate to another system that, for whatever reason, Pentax, isn't suited to - that cuts the field down still further - but there are working pros here, like @kenspo who cover concerts with K-1s - it might be interesting to see how he handles the situation? At the moment, my issue is not that the K-1 is unable to delete photos while still writing data to the card. My problem is that I have got used to work like this and now, whenever I decide on using the K-1, I regularly lock the camera. I would really welcome if the camera would prevent the user from deleting photos while there is still data in the buffer, ie. by greying out the delete button on the gui. At least, I won't be able to lock the camera.

12-19-2016, 11:26 AM	#22
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by tcom I would really welcome if the camera would prevent the user from deleting photos while there is still data in the buffer, ie. by greying out the delete button on the gui. At least, I won't be able to lock the camera. The orange "card access" indicator lamp on the back of the camera might be helpful to you. If that light is lit the camera is writing to the card. Steve

12-20-2016, 03:11 PM	#23
manishved Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: N. Calif Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,651	Great time to buy some high speed SD Cards and yes, of course, no better time to change your habits

12-20-2016, 11:20 PM	#24
tcom Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Switzerland Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,293 Original Poster	I don't think that 300MB/s ExtremePro SDXC cards are the bottleneck on a K-1, @manishved. They are way faster than what the K-1 is able to deliver. I expect from a DSLR to take a photo whenever the shutter is pressed, given of course the camera is powered up and there is still enough space on memory card and buffer. The K-1 and K-3 II are the only cameras I used over the past 10 years (and these are quite a few) I am able to lockup. Ricoh really developped a unique selling point with the latest camera generation... Anyway, for the time being, I will not change my habits and cover events using my other gear. The next firmware update will decide if I buy a second K-1 or sell it.

12-21-2016, 03:01 PM	#25
bigdavephoto Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: East central Indiana Photos: Gallery Posts: 893	tcom, I don't want to sound like I am talking back to you in anyway but I think you have worked your way into a circle with no way out. Take a breath, have a cup of joe, or something harder if you drink liquor and hear me out. Please hear me out. I think you are wanting the camera to do something you, yourself need to do. After reading through what you have said, this is what I am getting you are saying. Camera locks up because you are deleting photos while buffer is writing photos to card --> Buffer is writing photos to card while you review and delete bad photos --> Camera locks up because you are deleting photos while buffer is writing photos to card. -->You get upset because camera is NOT graying out delete button while buffer is writing to card --> Goes back to shooting pictures --> quick to review and delete bad photos --> Camera locks up because you are deleting photos while buffer is writing photos to card. Do you see what sort of circle you are in? My question to you is, how does Pentax changing the delete button to being greyed out change your work flow? Wouldn't that be the same as what stevebrot suggested. If the delete button is greyed out or you wait for the memory access light to stop flashing, wouldn't that be less time then waiting for the camera to unlock before you can take some more pictures? I understand you are working with a very tight time limit. I also feel, you would gain time if instead of deleting photos in camera, you delete after submitting what you need to. Yeah, I agree, instead of 50 pictures to decide on the best from, you might have 200 pictures to decide from. Because you didn't say much about where you are working, I am thinking it is a daily newspaper, just remember, they are not necessary looking for the best of the best of the best, they just need a photo or two to prove the point.

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12-21-2016, 03:43 PM	#26
tcom Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Switzerland Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,293 Original Poster	An LED going out for 2-3 seconds before it goes on again is not really a useful information to know if the camera finished to write the buffer to the card or not. Until the Pentax K-3, it was not possible to review the photos taken before they were written on the card, it was not possible to lock the camera. With the K-3 II and K-1, you have full control on the user interface and are able to delete photos, locking the camera. On a typical event, when using Nikon gear, I delete around 60-75% of the photos right on the spot. Of course I could delete the photos after having submitted a selection of the best ones to the medias and news photo agencies. But believe me, importing and reviewing 600 photos to Lightroom instead of 2000 makes a huge difference in time. With Pentax gear (upto K-3), I don't delete as many photos, the main reason is not that I have to wait until the buffer is empty before being able to delete, but because I use the Pentax gear in lesser demanding conditions. Typically events such as figure ice skating, indoor volleyball in badly light venues or rock concerts are the domains where I definitely favor Nikon. The K-1 has however improved in many areas and I would really like to use it also for more demanding events, but this issue is definitely a killer point. But with the K-1, I try to wait for the LED to go out, hit delete and the LED goes on again and the camera is locked for 10-20 seconds.

12-22-2016, 01:24 AM	#27
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,669	@tcom - perhaps this has already been mentioned earlier in the thread, but have you flagged your issue to Ricoh via our Ask Ricoh Imaging Support facility? A potential improvement would be for the camera to allow images to be flagged for deletion when data in the buffer is being written to the cards, followed by a background process to delete the flagged photos once they have been completely written. Whilst not a trivial change to the existing firmware, it's not a particularly complicated development. Perhaps Ricoh would consider adding something like this to a future firmware release...

12-22-2016, 09:23 AM	#28
tcom Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Switzerland Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,293 Original Poster	Yes, I posted the issue also in the "Ask Ricoh Imaging Support" part, they are already aware of the problem, but as long I am the only one complaining, the priority is most probably not high enough to get a solution. Your suggestion would be a solution as well and it does not seem as if it would require much effort. Another solution could be if the photographer could rate the photos, but that's probably too much to ask at the price level of the K-1.

01-19-2017, 02:20 AM	#29
sunCrm Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: sunpic.lt Posts: 82	Hi tcom, I`m not able to find it on Ask Ricoh section to support it there, as this thing also "grinds my gear". Fortunately my camera does not lock up to the point where I need re-start with battery, but it takes humongous time to delete an image. (this issues is also reported in this CZ review, you are welcome to translate to your language - Pentax K-1 ? recenze \| Marek Musil foto ) And yes - i`m used to exact flow as you are - I want to delete an image (if i do not like it) right after taking it. It was never and issue with my K5, and I got used to this way freeing some space on my card. And yes - it is annoying i cant do what Pentax got me used to in the first place. (Using Sandisk Extreme Pro 64gb)

01-20-2017, 01:19 AM	#30
tcom Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Switzerland Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,293 Original Poster	Originally posted by sunCrm Hi tcom, I`m not able to find it on Ask Ricoh section to support it there, as this thing also "grinds my gear". Fortunately my camera does not lock up to the point where I need re-start with battery, but it takes humongous time to delete an image. (this issues is also reported in this CZ review, you are welcome to translate to your language - Pentax K-1 ? recenze \| Marek Musil foto ) And yes - i`m used to exact flow as you are - I want to delete an image (if i do not like it) right after taking it. It was never and issue with my K5, and I got used to this way freeing some space on my card. And yes - it is annoying i cant do what Pentax got me used to in the first place. (Using Sandisk Extreme Pro 64gb) Hi sunCrm There has been no reaction at all to the thread in the Ask Ricoh section, and it seems to have been removed now from that section. Thankfully I never needed to re-start with the battery neither, it is just that the hardware of the camera is unable to do what the firmware allows, so deleting and writing to the card is not performed in parallel, but sequentialized, locking the camera for 10-20 seconds. I thought it would have been an easy fix in the firmware in simply not allowing the deletion while there are still data to be processed, but four firmware updates did not bring any improvement. For the time being, I am not buying a second K-1 which I badly need if I want to cover events for the press with the K-1 as long as this behavior remains. I am really considering in a first step selling only the K-1 and if the next generation cameras still feature the bug, that would be time to close my 25-year adventure with Pentax and sell all lenses as well.