Archiving antique maps and manuscripts

gibv · 12-23-2017, 10:35 AM - **1 Like**

Hi guys, obviously photography not my main expertise!
Please tell me what lens would you buy for a Pentax K10 that I intend to use for taking accurate pictures of maps and manuscripts.
I intend to use the camera fitted on a German made photography stand.
Thks in advance and Merry Christmas!

Not a Number · 12-23-2017, 11:56 AM

You might consider opting for a higher resolution sensor model such as the K-3, K-3ii, KP or K-70. The full frame sensor on the K-1 will give you more coverage. Much of it depends on the size of the original documents, how far the copy stand extends from the document, whether you need full coverage of the document or sections that can be stitched together. These considerations would also help decide what focal length lens to use.

A prime macro lens would be my advice. These will give you excellent resolution and flat-field performance. Sharp corners and edges on images of mostly flat documents is desirable.

35mmfilmfan · 12-23-2017, 12:10 PM

Thinking non-photographically for a moment, depending on the size of the documents, would a reasonable flat-bed scanner fit the bill ?

6BQ5 · 12-23-2017, 12:32 PM - **2 Likes**

Try a macro lens. Macro lenses will have flatter fields and potentially have sharper optics. You won't need any fancy autofocus or weather sealing. Mount the lens, align the camera, stop down to f/6.3 or something like that ... and shoot with 2 or 10 second delay. Use low ISO and slow shutter speeds. The camera will be mounted so it shouldn't suffer from any hand shaking.

Depending on the size of the document and the height of your stand you will need to decide your focal length. Native K-mount options include 35mm, 50mm, 90mm, and 100mm. All focal lengths are covered by Pentax lenses and the 90mm focal length is made by Tamron. You said you are working with a K10D which as a cropped APS sensor. The 100mm may be a bit much ... I don't know. Perhaps the 35mm or 50mm focal length will suit you best, especially if your document is pretty big.

If you are not satisfied with your results on the K10D then consider the time spent as a practice session. You can rent some high end gear for a week and photograph everything in one swoop. Something like the K-1 or even a Sony A7 system will have plenty enough resolution for you.

gibv · 12-23-2017, 01:17 PM

Thank you guys, this is really helpful for an amateur.
First, I must rely on the K10, I don't want to spend more on equipment, at least not for now.
A scanner won't do, one exposure is said to age the paper of antique stuff with 10 years.
I'll be looking for some recommended macro lens in your posts and try them up.
Could you recommend me some sites where I could find any used ones?
I don't really need the expensive stuff.
Thks again and Merry Christams to you all,

**Tamia** · 12-23-2017, 01:57 PM

For decades I've relied on the Pentax-M 50mm f/1.7 to do copy-stand work. I started using it with a K-1000 film camera, when this lens was said to be designed for copy work because it's sharp from corner to corner. This lens is a legacy lens and is no longer made, it is a manual lens but can be used with a digital camera (I use it with mine for copy work, from maps to documents), and best of all, it's widely available on the used market. I bought the one I use now from a form member who listed his for sale on the Pentax Marketplace. AND, they are usually quite inexpensive. It's also a handy small lens, lightweight, and a joy to use. Here is the review page for the Pentax-M 50mm f/1.7.

Not a Number · 12-23-2017, 02:25 PM

Arguably the 50mm A f/1.7 is optically as good as the M. Both have excellent flat-field performance. The problem with the A lens is the leaf springs for the "A" button often break loose and make operating the ring difficult. Not a problem if you can set it in the "A" mode as you can then use the eDial to set the aperture. This also means you don't need the additional step of stop down/green button meter. This isn't really a problem with copy work because once you get good settings you can run with them for quite some time.

If you are using the simple ring and leg copy stand that Pentax used to sell this is only set to cover letter sized documents with a 50mm lens a full frame camera. With a crop sensor body like the K10D you won't get full coverage unless you use a 35mm lens. The length of the legs were designed for full frame cameras.

The 50mm f/1.7 were the budget lenses followed by the low-budget f/2.0 and are easily found on the used market.

**Tamia** · 12-23-2017, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by 6BQ5

...You said you are working with a K10D which as a cropped APS sensor. ... I don't know. Perhaps the 35mm or 50mm focal length will suit you best, especially if your document is pretty big.

I meant to say something about this also but my browser crashed. I also use a SMC Pentax-M 28mm f/2.8 legacy manual lens for copy work when the Pentax-M 50mm f/1.7 crops out portions of the document or map, generally when I'm using my make-shift copy stand. The effective focal length of the 28mm manual lens used on an APS-C camera is about 35mm, and the 50mm manual lens' effective focal length is about 75mm. The Pentax-M 28mm distorts a bit, which usually isn't a problem but could be if you needed complete accuracy.

**tduell** · 12-23-2017, 02:33 PM

One approach to this task that many have successfully used, is to shoot overlapping shots and stitch using Hugin (or similar).
The beauty of this approach is that you can use the lens you have; distortions and geometry can be corrected, and you end up with a very high resolution result.

Cheers,
Terry

P.S. If you go the stitching route, a long lens can be helpful as it will help minimise the effects of creases if the maps have been folded.

**microlight** · 12-23-2017, 03:15 PM - **1 Like**

I used my K-3II and the 20-40 at 40mm, f7.1 on a tripod with pixel shift (2 second delay) to copy some of my wife's paintings for having Christmas cards printed - worked well. Nice colour rendition and good resolution. Here's a scan of one of the cards, and a Merry Christmas to you all!

**Bob 256** · 12-23-2017, 05:08 PM

I assume from your description that the documents you will be shooting will be on a wall or hung vertically (you didn't mention how large they would be)? If that's the case, be sure you shoot perpendicular to the wall - maybe a level on your camera and some means to shoot straight on. The idea is to keep corresponding corners the same distance from the lens so magnification (and focus) will be the same across your field. Same applies if you shoot downward on a copy table.

The other thing to consider is lighting. It should be uniform and if you're shooting color, it should be a good white light source. Two sources, one to the left and one to the right of the camera often work well but you may need to experiment to get even illumination. If you choose to stitch, uneven lighting can be an issue if you move your artwork between shots. Lots of choices for lighting including some affordable CFL and LED lights. Skylighted walls can work too if uniform. If you have a cheap illumination meter (Amazon), you can check across the field for uniformity but you can also use the spot meter in your camera on a neutral background before setting up the documents. If you run into problems with reflections, you can move your light sources to get the best result but for really tough cases, you can use crossed polarizers (a set on the light sources and one on the camera adjusted to minimize reflections).

Meter using a histogram if possible. You don't want to clip the whitest portion of your documents (unless you're going for high contrast). That usually means a little space to the right of the histogram. That will leave room for adjustments later and preserve details in the highlights (maybe not so important for written text but really important in some old manuscripts to maintain their appearance).

photoptimist · 12-23-2017, 05:34 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by 6BQ5

Try a macro lens. Macro lenses will have flatter fields and potentially have sharper optics. You won't need any fancy autofocus or weather sealing. Mount the lens, align the camera, stop down to f/6.3 or something like that ... and shoot with 2 or 10 second delay. Use low ISO and slow shutter speeds. The camera will be mounted so it shouldn't suffer from any hand shaking.

Depending on the size of the document and the height of your stand you will need to decide your focal length. Native K-mount options include 35mm, 50mm, 90mm, and 100mm. All focal lengths are covered by Pentax lenses and the 90mm focal length is made by Tamron. You said you are working with a K10D which as a cropped APS sensor. The 100mm may be a bit much ... I don't know. Perhaps the 35mm or 50mm focal length will suit you best, especially if your document is pretty big.

If you are not satisfied with your results on the K10D then consider the time spent as a practice session. You can rent some high end gear for a week and photograph everything in one swoop. Something like the K-1 or even a Sony A7 system will have plenty enough resolution for you.

Good ideas!

With a 50mm on the K-10D (APS-C), the camera distance needs to be a bit more than twice the length of the document.

With a 35mm on the K-10D (APS-C), the camera distance needs to be only about 1.5 times the length of the document.

clicksworth · 12-23-2017, 05:53 PM - **1 Like**

There is a calculator at this site that could help in picking a correct focal length for your stand and document size. Using a multiplier of 1.5 for Pentax, it says that with a 50mm lens you would want to be 28 inches back from an 8.5" by 11" page to fill the frame.
Field of View Calculator - Rectilinear and Fisheye lenses - Bob Atkins Photography

calsan · 12-24-2017, 01:46 AM - **1 Like**

In an ideal world:
The DA35 Ltd would be the obvious choice for document copying, except that it's pretty expensive.

Alternative Plan A:
You may be able to find a vintage manual focus 50mm macro. Back in the day, macros were 1:2 magnification and f/4.
So, not impressive by today's standards, but more than adequate for copying documents. Manual focus is all you need for copying work, so that's money saved!
The Pentax-M 50mm f:4 1:2 Macro would be suitable, and probably readily available.

Alternative Plan B:
Would be to buy a modern 35 or 50 macro and then sell it when you're done. You 'might' get most of your money back!

Other things to note
Shoot in RAW format so you can process the files to get the best image quality.
Shoot at 100 ISO.
Either use a remote or set the timer to the 12 second mode.
Shoot a grey card first to help get your white balance correct.

Happy Christmas

**alfa75ts** · 12-24-2017, 02:36 AM

Originally posted by calsan

or set the timer to the 12 second mode.

I don't know about the K10 but in the 12 second mode the K-x, K-7 and K-3 count to 12, meter the scene then raise the mirror and take the shot.

If you're trying to reduce vibration use the 2 sec mode, it meters the scene, raises the mirror, counts to 2 then takes the shot.

12-23-2017, 10:35 AM - 1 Like	#1
gibv New Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 2	Archiving antique maps and manuscripts Hi guys, obviously photography not my main expertise! Please tell me what lens would you buy for a Pentax K10 that I intend to use for taking accurate pictures of maps and manuscripts. I intend to use the camera fitted on a German made photography stand. Thks in advance and Merry Christmas!

12-23-2017, 02:33 PM	#9
tduell Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: May 2015 Location: Melbourne Posts: 1,517	One approach to this task that many have successfully used, is to shoot overlapping shots and stitch using Hugin (or similar). The beauty of this approach is that you can use the lens you have; distortions and geometry can be corrected, and you end up with a very high resolution result. Cheers, Terry P.S. If you go the stitching route, a long lens can be helpful as it will help minimise the effects of creases if the maps have been folded. Last edited by tduell; 12-23-2017 at 02:41 PM. Reason: additional info

12-23-2017, 05:08 PM	#11
Bob 256 Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Idaho Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,378	I assume from your description that the documents you will be shooting will be on a wall or hung vertically (you didn't mention how large they would be)? If that's the case, be sure you shoot perpendicular to the wall - maybe a level on your camera and some means to shoot straight on. The idea is to keep corresponding corners the same distance from the lens so magnification (and focus) will be the same across your field. Same applies if you shoot downward on a copy table. The other thing to consider is lighting. It should be uniform and if you're shooting color, it should be a good white light source. Two sources, one to the left and one to the right of the camera often work well but you may need to experiment to get even illumination. If you choose to stitch, uneven lighting can be an issue if you move your artwork between shots. Lots of choices for lighting including some affordable CFL and LED lights. Skylighted walls can work too if uniform. If you have a cheap illumination meter (Amazon), you can check across the field for uniformity but you can also use the spot meter in your camera on a neutral background before setting up the documents. If you run into problems with reflections, you can move your light sources to get the best result but for really tough cases, you can use crossed polarizers (a set on the light sources and one on the camera adjusted to minimize reflections). Meter using a histogram if possible. You don't want to clip the whitest portion of your documents (unless you're going for high contrast). That usually means a little space to the right of the histogram. That will leave room for adjustments later and preserve details in the highlights (maybe not so important for written text but really important in some old manuscripts to maintain their appearance). Last edited by Bob 256; 12-23-2017 at 05:14 PM.

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12-23-2017, 11:56 AM	#2
Not a Number Moderator Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Venice, CA Posts: 10,526	You might consider opting for a higher resolution sensor model such as the K-3, K-3ii, KP or K-70. The full frame sensor on the K-1 will give you more coverage. Much of it depends on the size of the original documents, how far the copy stand extends from the document, whether you need full coverage of the document or sections that can be stitched together. These considerations would also help decide what focal length lens to use. A prime macro lens would be my advice. These will give you excellent resolution and flat-field performance. Sharp corners and edges on images of mostly flat documents is desirable.

12-23-2017, 12:10 PM	#3
35mmfilmfan Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: Norfolk, UK Posts: 4,340	Thinking non-photographically for a moment, depending on the size of the documents, would a reasonable flat-bed scanner fit the bill ?

12-23-2017, 12:32 PM - 2 Likes	#4
6BQ5 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Nevada, USA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,348	Try a macro lens. Macro lenses will have flatter fields and potentially have sharper optics. You won't need any fancy autofocus or weather sealing. Mount the lens, align the camera, stop down to f/6.3 or something like that ... and shoot with 2 or 10 second delay. Use low ISO and slow shutter speeds. The camera will be mounted so it shouldn't suffer from any hand shaking. Depending on the size of the document and the height of your stand you will need to decide your focal length. Native K-mount options include 35mm, 50mm, 90mm, and 100mm. All focal lengths are covered by Pentax lenses and the 90mm focal length is made by Tamron. You said you are working with a K10D which as a cropped APS sensor. The 100mm may be a bit much ... I don't know. Perhaps the 35mm or 50mm focal length will suit you best, especially if your document is pretty big. If you are not satisfied with your results on the K10D then consider the time spent as a practice session. You can rent some high end gear for a week and photograph everything in one swoop. Something like the K-1 or even a Sony A7 system will have plenty enough resolution for you.

12-23-2017, 01:17 PM	#5
gibv New Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 2 Original Poster	Thank you guys, this is really helpful for an amateur. First, I must rely on the K10, I don't want to spend more on equipment, at least not for now. A scanner won't do, one exposure is said to age the paper of antique stuff with 10 years. I'll be looking for some recommended macro lens in your posts and try them up. Could you recommend me some sites where I could find any used ones? I don't really need the expensive stuff. Thks again and Merry Christams to you all,

12-23-2017, 01:57 PM	#6
Tamia Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Here, there, and everywhere. Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,384	For decades I've relied on the Pentax-M 50mm f/1.7 to do copy-stand work. I started using it with a K-1000 film camera, when this lens was said to be designed for copy work because it's sharp from corner to corner. This lens is a legacy lens and is no longer made, it is a manual lens but can be used with a digital camera (I use it with mine for copy work, from maps to documents), and best of all, it's widely available on the used market. I bought the one I use now from a form member who listed his for sale on the Pentax Marketplace. AND, they are usually quite inexpensive. It's also a handy small lens, lightweight, and a joy to use. Here is the review page for the Pentax-M 50mm f/1.7.

12-23-2017, 02:25 PM	#7
Not a Number Moderator Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Venice, CA Posts: 10,526	Arguably the 50mm A f/1.7 is optically as good as the M. Both have excellent flat-field performance. The problem with the A lens is the leaf springs for the "A" button often break loose and make operating the ring difficult. Not a problem if you can set it in the "A" mode as you can then use the eDial to set the aperture. This also means you don't need the additional step of stop down/green button meter. This isn't really a problem with copy work because once you get good settings you can run with them for quite some time. If you are using the simple ring and leg copy stand that Pentax used to sell this is only set to cover letter sized documents with a 50mm lens a full frame camera. With a crop sensor body like the K10D you won't get full coverage unless you use a 35mm lens. The length of the legs were designed for full frame cameras. The 50mm f/1.7 were the budget lenses followed by the low-budget f/2.0 and are easily found on the used market.

12-23-2017, 02:27 PM	#8
Tamia Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Here, there, and everywhere. Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,384	Originally posted by 6BQ5 ...You said you are working with a K10D which as a cropped APS sensor. ... I don't know. Perhaps the 35mm or 50mm focal length will suit you best, especially if your document is pretty big. I meant to say something about this also but my browser crashed. I also use a SMC Pentax-M 28mm f/2.8 legacy manual lens for copy work when the Pentax-M 50mm f/1.7 crops out portions of the document or map, generally when I'm using my make-shift copy stand. The effective focal length of the 28mm manual lens used on an APS-C camera is about 35mm, and the 50mm manual lens' effective focal length is about 75mm. The Pentax-M 28mm distorts a bit, which usually isn't a problem but could be if you needed complete accuracy.

12-23-2017, 03:15 PM - 1 Like	#10
microlight Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Hampshire, UK Posts: 2,129	I used my K-3II and the 20-40 at 40mm, f7.1 on a tripod with pixel shift (2 second delay) to copy some of my wife's paintings for having Christmas cards printed - worked well. Nice colour rendition and good resolution. Here's a scan of one of the cards, and a Merry Christmas to you all!

12-23-2017, 05:34 PM - 1 Like	#12
photoptimist Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2016 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,128	Originally posted by 6BQ5 Try a macro lens. Macro lenses will have flatter fields and potentially have sharper optics. You won't need any fancy autofocus or weather sealing. Mount the lens, align the camera, stop down to f/6.3 or something like that ... and shoot with 2 or 10 second delay. Use low ISO and slow shutter speeds. The camera will be mounted so it shouldn't suffer from any hand shaking. Depending on the size of the document and the height of your stand you will need to decide your focal length. Native K-mount options include 35mm, 50mm, 90mm, and 100mm. All focal lengths are covered by Pentax lenses and the 90mm focal length is made by Tamron. You said you are working with a K10D which as a cropped APS sensor. The 100mm may be a bit much ... I don't know. Perhaps the 35mm or 50mm focal length will suit you best, especially if your document is pretty big. If you are not satisfied with your results on the K10D then consider the time spent as a practice session. You can rent some high end gear for a week and photograph everything in one swoop. Something like the K-1 or even a Sony A7 system will have plenty enough resolution for you. Good ideas! With a 50mm on the K-10D (APS-C), the camera distance needs to be a bit more than twice the length of the document. With a 35mm on the K-10D (APS-C), the camera distance needs to be only about 1.5 times the length of the document.

12-23-2017, 05:53 PM - 1 Like	#13
clicksworth Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Photos: Albums Posts: 150	There is a calculator at this site that could help in picking a correct focal length for your stand and document size. Using a multiplier of 1.5 for Pentax, it says that with a 50mm lens you would want to be 28 inches back from an 8.5" by 11" page to fill the frame. Field of View Calculator - Rectilinear and Fisheye lenses - Bob Atkins Photography

12-24-2017, 01:46 AM - 1 Like	#14
calsan Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Perth, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,549	In an ideal world: The DA35 Ltd would be the obvious choice for document copying, except that it's pretty expensive. Alternative Plan A: You may be able to find a vintage manual focus 50mm macro. Back in the day, macros were 1:2 magnification and f/4. So, not impressive by today's standards, but more than adequate for copying documents. Manual focus is all you need for copying work, so that's money saved! The Pentax-M 50mm f:4 1:2 Macro would be suitable, and probably readily available. Alternative Plan B: Would be to buy a modern 35 or 50 macro and then sell it when you're done. You 'might' get most of your money back! Other things to note Shoot in RAW format so you can process the files to get the best image quality. Shoot at 100 ISO. Either use a remote or set the timer to the 12 second mode. Shoot a grey card first to help get your white balance correct. Happy Christmas

12-24-2017, 02:36 AM	#15
alfa75ts Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 1,356	Originally posted by calsan or set the timer to the 12 second mode. I don't know about the K10 but in the 12 second mode the K-x, K-7 and K-3 count to 12, meter the scene then raise the mirror and take the shot. If you're trying to reduce vibration use the 2 sec mode, it meters the scene, raises the mirror, counts to 2 then takes the shot.