[jawats]

Okay,

So I received an Auto-Takumar 35mm 3.5 today in the mail. I have a couple questions on it for y'all.

1. It has the funky lever on it, as well as an aperture pin. The lever opens and closes the aperture for...focusing? And, is there an auto-aperture mode? If so, how does one make it work?

2. The pictures I am taking seem overexposed and / or cloudy. Camera is fine - tested with another Takumar. Lens, after cleaning with lens cloth, seems clear. I've tried it at various apertures. So far, no luck with better exposure, esp. in brighter light. Any thoughts? Thanks!

--Jonathan

[Adam]

Okay,

So I received an Auto-Takumar 35mm 3.5 today in the mail. I have a couple questions on it for y'all.

1. It has the funky lever on it, as well as an aperture pin. The lever opens and closes the aperture for...focusing? And, is there an auto-aperture mode? If so, how does one make it work?

2. The pictures I am taking seem overexposed and / or cloudy. Camera is fine - tested with another Takumar. Lens, after cleaning with lens cloth, seems clear. I've tried it at various apertures. So far, no luck with better exposure, esp. in brighter light. Any thoughts? Thanks!

--Jonathan

There's no auto-aperture mode, and while you could leverage an automatic diaphragm on some spotmatics, DSLRs require you to use the lens in manual diaphragm mode with stop-down metering.


Have you tried using live view for metering? Alternatively you could apply an exposure compensation, as some lenses simple are like that.

[jawats]

There's no auto-aperture mode, and while you could leverage an automatic diaphragm on some spotmatics, DSLRs require you to use the lens in manual diaphragm mode with stop-down metering.


Have you tried using live view for metering? Alternatively you could apply an exposure compensation, as some lenses simple are like that.

Adam - what does "Auto" mean in the name?

[GUB]

Auto in the context of back then when it was a bleeding edge lens meant that by depressing that lever it automaticaly opened the aperture rather than you having to turn the aperture ring. unfortunately it required the pin to be depressed for the iris to close back to it's setting. DSLRs don't do that so if you press the auto button you have to remove the lens and press the pin otherwise all your shots will be wide open.

[pschlute]

Can he not use Av mode also with the Tak ?

[GUB]

Can he not use Av mode also with the Tak ?

Yes - when Adam refers to "manual diaphram mode" he means the lens setting not the camera. AV should work fine. I think Jawats exposure problem stems from pushing the preview button on the auto tak lens which leaves the lens wide open until the pin at the back is depressed.

EDIT Just had a play with my 35 3.5 46mm filter auto tak and can confirm in AV it seems to overexpose one or two stops to what I would normally run in manual by exposing via the histogram.

[stevebrot]

Adam - what does "Auto" mean in the name?

Vintage lenses with "Auto" in the name advertise the fact that the aperture is not manual and will "automatically" stop down at exposure time using the coupling pin on the rear of the lens (automatic aperture actuation). Technically Auto Takumar series lenses are semi-auto in that the lever on the side is used to return the aperture to full open. Despite current usage, the term has nothing to do with exposure automation and exposure automation is not dependent on automatic aperture actuation.*

Introduction of aperture automation in the early 1950s was a real boon to SLR photography and was a marketing point well into the 1970s when auto aperture actuation became the norm on SLRs except for specialty lenses. The full gamut of aperture mechanisms include:

• Manual: the iris opening remains at the set aperture at all times. This class of aperture is commonly used on mirrorless cameras, both vintage and modern.
• Pre-set: The lens is either stopped down to a previously selected setting or wide open depending on the action of a lever, switch or slider. One sets the aperture in advance, uses the switch to open the aperture and focus, and then uses the switch again to take the shot. Pre-set apertures are common on tilt-shift lenses and where automatic aperture actuation would be impractical or too expensive. This type was fairly common in the 1950s and 1960s and may even be found today on some lenses. My newest preset lens is a Soviet-made LZOS MC Jupiter-9 85mm f/2.
• Semi-auto: Automatic stop-down for exposure with user action needed to reset (lever on side)
• Automatic: Stops down automatically for exposure and opens again before the next shot

Some might also include so-called Waterhouse stops which use a set of metal cut-out apertures to be placed in the lens. The Lomography Petzval 58mm f/1.9 uses Waterhouse stops.

To summarize...Despite current usage, "manual" and "auto" in regards to lenses usually has nothing to do with exposure automation. That is a camera thing. Manual focus mean just that. Auto focus mean the camera (and rarely, the lens) will do it for you. Auto exposure means the camera will set exposure on its own. Manual exposure means no exposure automation. "A", "P", "E", or "AE" on the aperture ring generally means the body will set the aperture for either manual or automated exposure with the ring on the position and mounted to an appropriate body.

Yes, it is confusing


Steve

* Auto aperture actuation works quite nicely on fully manual exposure and meterless cameras just so long as they support the actuator coupling pin. Likewise exposure automation may be done with fully manual aperture lenses when mated to appropriate bodies.

---

Last edited by stevebrot; 05-25-2018 at 06:18 PM.

[jawats]

Yes - when Adam refers to "manual diaphram mode" he means the lens setting not the camera. AV should work fine. I think Jawats exposure problem stems from pushing the preview button on the auto tak lens which leaves the lens wide open until the pin at the back is depressed.

EDIT Just had a play with my 35 3.5 46mm filter auto tak and can confirm in AV it seems to overexpose one or two stops to what I would normally run in manual by exposing via the histogram.

Okay, GUB. Same lens as the one I am using?

Help me learn here, if you don't mind. You have the same or similar lens. I take it that the best way to use it is either full manual, in auto mode with manual aperture adjustment, or in Av mode. Is there a good tutorial on Av mode someplace?

My K-3 seems off - when I put it in any of the "_v" modes, they ALL say "Aperture Priority" - has the camera become "deprogrammed" from what the other modes should be?

---------- Post added 05-25-18 at 06:24 PM ----------

Vintage lenses with "Auto" in the name advertise the fact that the aperture is not manual and will "automatically" stop down at exposure time using the coupling pin on the rear of the lens (automatic aperture actuation). Technically Auto Takumar series lenses are semi-auto in that the lever on the side is used to return the aperture to full open. Despite current usage, the term has nothing to do with exposure automation and exposure automation is not dependent on automatic aperture actuation.*

Introduction of aperture automation in the early 1950s was a real boon to SLR photography and was a marketing point well into the 1970s when auto aperture actuation became the norm on SLRs except for specialty lenses. The full gamut of aperture mechanisms include:

• Manual: the iris opening remains at the set aperture at all times. This class of aperture is commonly used on mirrorless cameras, both vintage and modern.
• Pre-set: The lens is either stopped down to a previously selected setting or wide open depending on the action of a lever, switch or slider. One sets the aperture in advance, uses the switch to open the aperture and focus, and then uses the switch again to take the shot. Pre-set apertures are common on tilt-shift lenses and where automatic aperture actuation would be impractical or too expensive. This type was fairly common in the 1950s and 1960s and may even be found today on some lenses. My newest preset lens is a Soviet-made LZOS MC Jupiter-9 85mm f/2.
• Semi-auto: Automatic stop-down for exposure with user action needed to reset (lever on side)
• Automatic: Stops down automatically for exposure and opens again before the next shot

Some might also include so-called Waterhouse stops which use a set of metal cut-out apertures to be placed in the lens. The Lomography Petzval 58mm f/1.9 uses Waterhouse stops.

To summarize...Despite current usage, "manual" and "auto" in regards to lenses usually has nothing to do with exposure automation. That is a camera thing. Manual focus mean just that. Auto focus mean the camera (and rarely, the lens) will do it for you. Auto exposure means the camera will set exposure on its own. Manual exposure means no exposure automation. "A", "P", "E", or "AE" on the aperture ring generally means the body will set the aperture for either manual or automated exposure with the ring on the position and mounted to an appropriate body.

Yes, it is confusing


Steve

* Auto aperture actuation works quite nicely on fully manual exposure and meterless cameras just so long as they support the actuator coupling pin. Likewise exposure automation may be done with fully manual aperture lenses when mated to appropriate bodies.

Steve,

I think I got all of that except for the part after "Vintage" and before "bodies." But other than that, I am good. :P

But, in all seriousness, it seems least troublesome to set the thing to a couple stops down (say, 5+) and work with ISO and shutter speed to achieve the desired image.

[GUB]

"my" best way is manual mode and learning from the result (chimping). And just because the AV is overexposed to my taste doesn't mean it isn't right . Because I work at base Iso and expose to keep highlights under control means I tend to underexpose. The main thing to remember is to not press that button once it is on the camera otherwise you will be stuck at wide open. My 35 is an early 46mm filter thread - a gem of a lens.

[Just1MoreDave]

My K-3 seems off - when I put it in any of the "_v" modes, they ALL say "Aperture Priority" - has the camera become "deprogrammed" from what the other modes should be?

Yep. You have two modes, Av or M. The camera also switches from matrix metering to center weighted.

It is really helpful to practice a lot with the lens and get a routine down for using it. The camera does a few things differently, you have to focus, you must change the aperture on the lens, etc. There are a few ways to handle the differences. Once you get it down, the lens is more useful, but staring at the controls for minutes per shot is less enjoyable. I had to put down the modern lenses and just use old ones until I got it.

[stevebrot]

My K-3 seems off - when I put it in any of the "_v" modes, they ALL say "Aperture Priority" - has the camera become "deprogrammed" from what the other modes should be?

That is how it works, though it is poorly documented. The rules go something like this:

• When the camera is not able to detect a lens that it can control the aperture on, all modes except M, X, and B default over to Av mode. Detection is done through the contacts on the lens mount, specifically the so-called "A" contact. Metering in this case is limited to center-averaged and spot modes.
• Manual aperture lenses may be used in Av mode with the camera metering the shutter speed based on the light hitting the sensor. (The body does not care whether the lens is open or closed. It meters the light, not the number.)
• K mount lenses that set aperture using the aperture ring may also be used in Av mode only with the understanding that both metering and exposure will be made with the lens wide open. If one wants this class of lens to stop down for exposure, one must use M, X, or B modes.
• M mode supports full manual exposure for all K-mount and adapted lenses, but only provides open-aperture metering when the body controls the aperture (A, F, FA, DA, and D FA series lenses)
• When the aperture is set using the aperture ring in M mode, one may use an external meter, an educated guess (so-called sunny 16 estimation), or one of two forms of stop-down through-the-lens metering
• Green button metering is similar to using the green button with the body controlling the aperture except that the camera stops down the lens momentarily for a meter reading and sets the shutter speed appropriately. Green button metering also works in live view
• Stop-down metering in M mode may also be done using the optical DOF preview lever. When this is done, the lens is stopped down and the camera provides an EV scale in the viewfinder and other displays
• Both of the above methods work nicely with manual aperture lenses, though the lens must be stopped down before metering and for exposure
• Exposure compensation and bracketing both work for stop-down metering
• Auto ISO is not available in M mode
• None of the stop-down methods (Av, green button, or DOF preview) are particularly consistent when using the optical viewfinder's meter. One may expect significant and predictable but non-linear exposure variance for most aperture settings on most lenses. This is not a matter of simply dialing in one or two stops EC.
• Green button metering in live view is essentially comparable to open-aperture readings done in live view

Metering methods by order of improved consistency and accuracy go like this: Av mode, M mode (optical viewfinder), M mode (live view), and external meter with the last two being equivalent. This is my personal experience and as a result, I seldom use Av mode with my M42 lenses. It is simply too fiddly.

I think I got all of that except for the part after "Vintage" and before "bodies." But other than that, I am good. :P

Sorry to read this. It may be worth a quick read through again, after looking at the list immediately above. Understanding how and when a lens stops down is one the keys to using vintage lenses on your K-3II and also helps with vintage lens purchases.

But, in all seriousness, it seems least troublesome to set the thing to a couple stops down (say, 5+) and work with ISO and shutter speed to achieve the desired image.

Good luck. You will be doing a lot of chimping. Some lenses will meter overexposure varying by aperture while others will start with underexposure, switch to overexposure and switch back to underexposure as aperture narrows. Fast lenses tend to be worse. What I usually suggest is to spend some time playing with the camera and seeing how it behaves and how to make stop-down metering work for you. I had the benefit of over a decade doing stop-down metering in my youth and doing the same on my K10D and now my K-3 came fairly naturally. What was harder was dealing with the metering inconsistency on the K10D for seven years and learning to use the somewhat improved system on the K-3 for the last four years. Oh, and yes, there is often a fair amount of chimping involved.

This post is turning out to be much more wordy than I intended, but I can leave with one last piece of advice. In addition to my K-3, I also shoot with a collection of vintage film cameras, many of which have no metering system and several of which meter stopped down. The key to using a manual exposure camera (your K-3II in M mode) is to meter once to get your settings and shoot freely until either the light or subject changes. The ability to adjust exposure in real time for each shot is highly overrated. If one stops to meter for every shot, the shot will walk away before you get your dials and rings in order.

Have fun!


Steve

[jawats]

Sorry to read this. It may be worth a quick read through again, after looking at the list immediately above. Understanding how and when a lens stops down is one the keys to using vintage lenses on your K-3II and also helps with vintage lens purchases.


Steve

I apologize, Steve. Tongue in cheek does not transfer well to the written page. I am grateful for all of your advice, and do understand most of it, and will learn the rest. Thank you again.

[stevebrot]

I apologize, Steve. Tongue in cheek does not transfer well to the written page. I am grateful for all of your advice, and do understand most of it, and will learn the rest. Thank you again.

No need to apologize. I tend to overexplain, but am basically good-natured. I am sure you will learn fast and have fun with your lens.


Steve

[Just1MoreDave]

...This post is turning out to be much more wordy than I intended, but I can leave with one last piece of advice. In addition to my K-3, I also shoot with a collection of vintage film cameras, many of which have no metering system and several of which meter stopped down. The key to using a manual exposure camera (your K-3II in M mode) is to meter once to get your settings and shoot freely until either the light or subject changes. The ability to adjust exposure in real time for each shot is highly overrated. If one stops to meter for every shot, the shot will walk away before you get your dials and rings in order.

This is what I do now. It took a while to convince me that I could/should ignore the camera's meter, because it's right there. But if it's wrong or wrong sometimes, it's just in the way. And you can adjust well to light once you pay attention to the source and direction. Take a couple of test shots to figure out where the bright spots and dark spots are, figure out a range that you can work in, and count the clicks between apertures. It's a skill so it takes some investment, but amaze your friends by metering with your mind! (Non-photographic friends will not care.)