Horizons not straight

leswott · 12-13-2018, 11:59 AM

Hi, this is my first post to the forum.

I have been taking pictures for a long time, and I'm very conscious of the horizon, it has to be straight when I take the picture. However, for the last six months or more I'm getting horizons that are 7-10 degrees off kilter (at the most) and sometimes less.
This is the K3 I am using. It is updated to 1.4version software.

For troubleshooting, I have put the camera on a flat surface facing a mirror. I have turned on live view and used the controls to correct the view. I was able to correct the slant by going up and right to the maximum. This uses the shake feature to move the sensor. My conclusion from that is that the sensor is somehow off kilter by default. It was not like that when I bought it.

Any comments or suggestions?

Les

amstel78 · 12-13-2018, 12:46 PM

You may need to send it in to be CLA'd at which point they will recalibrate the sensor.

stevebrot · 12-13-2018, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by leswott

Any comments or suggestions?

Welcome to the Pentax Forums!

Do you see this with both optical and live view?

Steve

**BigMackCam** · 12-13-2018, 01:17 PM

Moderator's note:

A similar thread was started in our Visitors' Centre by the OP, before becoming a member. For the OP's benefit, I'm posting below all of the replies from that thread, and deleting it to avoid duplication:

Originally posted by photolady95

Do you have Horizon correction set?

Originally posted by clackers

How are you levelling the camera, Leslie?

Originally posted by swanlefitte

Sounds like you need to focus on how you tuck your elbow.

Originally posted by Adam

Some possibilities:
-horizon correction is on and not calibrated well (try disabling it, or updating the firmware)
-the SR assembly is damaged (send the camera in)
-composition adjustment is on (disable it or reset the camera settings)

Originally posted by stevebrot

Hello Leslie!

Every year or so this question pops up and usually the discussion ends with the problem being assigned to a shelf for other unexplained stuff. The most recent was just a few months ago from a member who does a lot of seascapes. Potential causes include:

Everything Adam suggested above
What swanlefitte stated and clackers inferred (camera is not level, for whatever reason)
Misaligned mirror, focus screen, frame mask, or other element for the optical viewfinder, assuming it never happens in live view
Something really subtle that can't be properly described

To be honest, I can't remember any case that was fully resolved beyond the suggestion to correct the tilt while editing in post-production. The acid test is to photograph a known vertical or horizontal line running through frame center with the camera on a tripod where the head has been leveled prior to mounting the camera.

Here is the other thread:

K1 sensor not level - PentaxForums.com

Steve

leswott · 12-13-2018, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by amstel78

You may need to send it in to be CLA'd at which point they will recalibrate the sensor.

Send it in to be what?

leswott · 12-13-2018, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by stevebrot

Welcome to the Pentax Forums!

Do you see this with both optical and live view?

Steve

Hi Steve, yes it is with both optical and live view, but as I said, if in live view I can correct the tilt. As the composition adjustment moves the sensor, I conclude that the sensor must be misaligned.

I guess my ultimate question is, will it cost an arm and a leg to fix, or should I get another camera?

As I do a lot of landscapes and seascapes, this is a super PITA having to fix them all in Lightroom, and losing image every time.

Les

---------- Post added 12-13-18 at 09:44 PM ----------

Originally posted by BigMackCam

Moderator's note:

A similar thread was started in our Visitors' Centre by the OP, before becoming a member. For the OP's benefit, I'm posting below all of the replies from that thread, and deleting it to avoid duplication:

Hi Steve:
Horizon correction seems to have no effect on or off.
In all my tests horizon was level.
composition adjustment only works with live view.

Thanks to all who have posted.

Les

stevebrot · 12-13-2018, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by leswott

Hi Steve, yes it is with both optical and live view, but as I said, if in live view I can correct the tilt. As the composition adjustment moves the sensor, I conclude that the sensor must be misaligned.

Live view shows you what the sensor "sees". If the sensor is crooked, the live view image will be as well. As a result, alignment using that view will ALWAYS be true to how you framed it.

Edit: The last sentence is true with one exception, that being if the sensor or camera shifts between framing and shutter release.

Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 12-14-2018 at 11:14 PM.

swanlefitte · 12-13-2018, 09:25 PM

When you say both liveview and optical view do you mean the final photos or that looking through the optical viewfinder is unlevel when the camera is level. That would be extremely weird meaning the whole innards shifted.

leswott · 12-14-2018, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by swanlefitte

When you say both liveview and optical view do you mean the final photos or that looking through the optical viewfinder is unlevel when the camera is level. That would be extremely weird meaning the whole innards shifted.

Hi
Live view can be straightened and the image taken is straight. Optical view is straight but the image taken is crooked. My only conclusion is that the sensor is seated crooked somehow, it was not like this always.

stevebrot · 12-14-2018, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by leswott

Live view can be straightened and the image taken is straight...

You lost me here. Assuming the camera is known level and true to the subject* (e.g. on a tripod), are you saying:

The image in the optical viewfinder is also level and true (Y/N)
The live view image is crooked (Y/N)
An exposure taken in this state will be crooked (Y/N)

If...

All are "Y", the sensor is misaligned or the camera is not actually level and true
All are "N", one or more elements in the optical viewfinder path are misaligned
#1 and #3 are "Y" and #2 "N", there is sensor movement immediately before the shutter opens (SR fail? Something loose?)
#1 and #2 are "Y" and #3 "N", same as point above
#1 is "Y" and #2 and "3 are "N", the system is working as expected
Any other combination, call an exorcist

Steve

* This is the theoretical case, not related to internal horizon correction (should be turned off) or indicator from the display level indicators (turn off). A bubble level against the camera base would be a good indicator if doing the test experimentally. A bubble level in the accessory shoe or on the QR clamp are not reliable (baseline too short).

swanlefitte · 12-14-2018, 11:13 PM

Definitely sounds like an unseated sensor. What's funny is that you say you can correct 7degrees where only 2 degrees is possible.
Pentax K-3 II Review - Technical Info
"The Pentax K-3 II can automatically correct for up to two degrees of roll in either direction if Shake Reduction is disabled, or one degree if it's enabled."
"You can move the sensor left, right, up, or down, and rotate it by up to a couple of degrees, fine-tuning your composition to perfection."

I wonder if it slipped past a barrier and if trying to make the picture less level if it would slide back. I wonder if you can even make it 9degrees or how many degrees both ways it will go.

leswott · 12-16-2018, 12:06 AM

Originally posted by stevebrot

You lost me here. Assuming the camera is known level and true to the subject* (e.g. on a tripod), are you saying:

The image in the optical viewfinder is also level and true (Y/N)
The live view image is crooked (Y/N)
An exposure taken in this state will be crooked (Y/N)

If...

All are "Y", the sensor is misaligned or the camera is not actually level and true
All are "N", one or more elements in the optical viewfinder path are misaligned
#1 and #3 are "Y" and #2 "N", there is sensor movement immediately before the shutter opens (SR fail? Something loose?)
#1 and #2 are "Y" and #3 "N", same as point above
#1 is "Y" and #2 and "3 are "N", the system is working as expected
Any other combination, call an exorcist

Steve

* This is the theoretical case, not related to internal horizon correction (should be turned off) or indicator from the display level indicators (turn off). A bubble level against the camera base would be a good indicator if doing the test experimentally. A bubble level in the accessory shoe or on the QR clamp are not reliable (baseline too short).

7 degrees is how much I thought the image was off kilter. But in Live view, I achieved what I thought was level by adjusting the sensor up and to the left 24 points.

---------- Post added 12-16-18 at 01:11 AM ----------

Originally posted by leswott

7 degrees is how much I thought the image was off kilter. But in Live view, I achieved what I thought was level by adjusting the sensor up and to the left 24 points.

The camera is known true and level to the subject.
1- The image in the viewfinder is level - YES
2 - The Live View image is also crooked, - YES
3 - YES
If the Live View is corrected, the image is no longer crooked.
I have tried to contact Pentax and await a reply.

stevebrot · 12-16-2018, 09:21 AM

Originally posted by leswott

I have tried to contact Pentax and await a reply.

They will suggest you send the camera in for adjustment and/or repair at your expense.

Sorry to ask such pointed questions, but 7-10 degrees is an incredible tilt. On review of pertinent threads on this site, the usual complaint is <2 degrees. Good luck on getting this resolved. FWIW, I often have to adjust alignment in post-processing and thought my sensor might have been out of alignment. On tripod, the viewfinder and live view agreed quite nicely, though I did discover that there is slight pincushion distortion in my K-3's optical viewfinder*. I also looked back through my archives and found that the photos that were out were all hand-held. My right shoulder has an old injury and apparently I was dropping that side ever so slightly when I pushed the shutter release. So yes...been there...done that.

Steve

* I was a little surprised, but not too bothered. Most of my film SLRs have some degree of viewfinder distortion as well and such used to be a part of the better camera reviews back-in-the-day.

leswott · 12-16-2018, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by stevebrot

They will suggest you send the camera in for adjustment and/or repair at your expense.

Sorry to ask such pointed questions, but 7-10 degrees is an incredible tilt. On review of pertinent threads on this site, the usual complaint is <2 degrees. Good luck on getting this resolved. FWIW, I often have to adjust alignment in post-processing and thought my sensor might have been out of alignment. On tripod, the viewfinder and live view agreed quite nicely, though I did discover that there is slight pincushion distortion in my K-3's optical viewfinder*. I also looked back through my archives and found that the photos that were out were all hand-held. My right shoulder has an old injury and apparently I was dropping that side ever so slightly when I pushed the shutter release. So yes...been there...done that.

Steve

* I was a little surprised, but not too bothered. Most of my film SLRs have some degree of viewfinder distortion as well and such used to be a part of the better camera reviews back-in-the-day.

Thanks for your input Steve. I agree, I have myself had to adjust horizons in the past, but not to such an extreme degree as lately, and when I compose so carefully, it is distressing to lose so many pixels. Nor has the camera suffered any distress. I await input from Pentax.

12-13-2018, 01:17 PM	#4
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,704	Moderator's note: A similar thread was started in our Visitors' Centre by the OP, before becoming a member. For the OP's benefit, I'm posting below all of the replies from that thread, and deleting it to avoid duplication: Originally posted by photolady95 Do you have Horizon correction set? Originally posted by clackers How are you levelling the camera, Leslie? Originally posted by swanlefitte Sounds like you need to focus on how you tuck your elbow. Originally posted by Adam Some possibilities: -horizon correction is on and not calibrated well (try disabling it, or updating the firmware) -the SR assembly is damaged (send the camera in) -composition adjustment is on (disable it or reset the camera settings) Originally posted by stevebrot Hello Leslie! Every year or so this question pops up and usually the discussion ends with the problem being assigned to a shelf for other unexplained stuff. The most recent was just a few months ago from a member who does a lot of seascapes. Potential causes include: Everything Adam suggested above What swanlefitte stated and clackers inferred (camera is not level, for whatever reason) Misaligned mirror, focus screen, frame mask, or other element for the optical viewfinder, assuming it never happens in live view Something really subtle that can't be properly described To be honest, I can't remember any case that was fully resolved beyond the suggestion to correct the tilt while editing in post-production. The acid test is to photograph a known vertical or horizontal line running through frame center with the camera on a tripod where the head has been leveled prior to mounting the camera. Here is the other thread: K1 sensor not level - PentaxForums.com Steve

12-14-2018, 11:11 PM	#10
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by leswott Live view can be straightened and the image taken is straight... You lost me here. Assuming the camera is known level and true to the subject* (e.g. on a tripod), are you saying: The image in the optical viewfinder is also level and true (Y/N) The live view image is crooked (Y/N) An exposure taken in this state will be crooked (Y/N) If... All are "Y", the sensor is misaligned or the camera is not actually level and true All are "N", one or more elements in the optical viewfinder path are misaligned #1 and #3 are "Y" and #2 "N", there is sensor movement immediately before the shutter opens (SR fail? Something loose?) #1 and #2 are "Y" and #3 "N", same as point above #1 is "Y" and #2 and "3 are "N", the system is working as expected Any other combination, call an exorcist Steve * This is the theoretical case, not related to internal horizon correction (should be turned off) or indicator from the display level indicators (turn off). A bubble level against the camera base would be a good indicator if doing the test experimentally. A bubble level in the accessory shoe or on the QR clamp are not reliable (baseline too short).

12-16-2018, 12:06 AM	#12
leswott Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 51 Original Poster	Originally posted by stevebrot You lost me here. Assuming the camera is known level and true to the subject* (e.g. on a tripod), are you saying: The image in the optical viewfinder is also level and true (Y/N) The live view image is crooked (Y/N) An exposure taken in this state will be crooked (Y/N) If... All are "Y", the sensor is misaligned or the camera is not actually level and true All are "N", one or more elements in the optical viewfinder path are misaligned #1 and #3 are "Y" and #2 "N", there is sensor movement immediately before the shutter opens (SR fail? Something loose?) #1 and #2 are "Y" and #3 "N", same as point above #1 is "Y" and #2 and "3 are "N", the system is working as expected Any other combination, call an exorcist Steve * This is the theoretical case, not related to internal horizon correction (should be turned off) or indicator from the display level indicators (turn off). A bubble level against the camera base would be a good indicator if doing the test experimentally. A bubble level in the accessory shoe or on the QR clamp are not reliable (baseline too short). 7 degrees is how much I thought the image was off kilter. But in Live view, I achieved what I thought was level by adjusting the sensor up and to the left 24 points. ---------- Post added 12-16-18 at 01:11 AM ---------- Originally posted by leswott 7 degrees is how much I thought the image was off kilter. But in Live view, I achieved what I thought was level by adjusting the sensor up and to the left 24 points. The camera is known true and level to the subject. 1- The image in the viewfinder is level - YES 2 - The Live View image is also crooked, - YES 3 - YES If the Live View is corrected, the image is no longer crooked. I have tried to contact Pentax and await a reply.

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12-13-2018, 11:59 AM	#1
leswott Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 51	Horizons not straight Hi, this is my first post to the forum. I have been taking pictures for a long time, and I'm very conscious of the horizon, it has to be straight when I take the picture. However, for the last six months or more I'm getting horizons that are 7-10 degrees off kilter (at the most) and sometimes less. This is the K3 I am using. It is updated to 1.4version software. For troubleshooting, I have put the camera on a flat surface facing a mirror. I have turned on live view and used the controls to correct the view. I was able to correct the slant by going up and right to the maximum. This uses the shake feature to move the sensor. My conclusion from that is that the sensor is somehow off kilter by default. It was not like that when I bought it. Any comments or suggestions? Les

12-13-2018, 12:46 PM	#2
amstel78 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: NEPA, NYC, and wherever work sends me... Photos: Albums Posts: 247	You may need to send it in to be CLA'd at which point they will recalibrate the sensor.

12-13-2018, 01:08 PM	#3
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by leswott Any comments or suggestions? Welcome to the Pentax Forums! Do you see this with both optical and live view? Steve

12-13-2018, 08:15 PM	#5
leswott Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 51 Original Poster	Originally posted by amstel78 You may need to send it in to be CLA'd at which point they will recalibrate the sensor. Send it in to be what?

12-13-2018, 08:24 PM	#6
leswott Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 51 Original Poster	Originally posted by stevebrot Welcome to the Pentax Forums! Do you see this with both optical and live view? Steve Hi Steve, yes it is with both optical and live view, but as I said, if in live view I can correct the tilt. As the composition adjustment moves the sensor, I conclude that the sensor must be misaligned. I guess my ultimate question is, will it cost an arm and a leg to fix, or should I get another camera? As I do a lot of landscapes and seascapes, this is a super PITA having to fix them all in Lightroom, and losing image every time. Les ---------- Post added 12-13-18 at 09:44 PM ---------- Originally posted by BigMackCam Moderator's note: A similar thread was started in our Visitors' Centre by the OP, before becoming a member. For the OP's benefit, I'm posting below all of the replies from that thread, and deleting it to avoid duplication: Hi Steve: Horizon correction seems to have no effect on or off. In all my tests horizon was level. composition adjustment only works with live view. Thanks to all who have posted. Les

12-13-2018, 08:48 PM	#7
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by leswott Hi Steve, yes it is with both optical and live view, but as I said, if in live view I can correct the tilt. As the composition adjustment moves the sensor, I conclude that the sensor must be misaligned. Live view shows you what the sensor "sees". If the sensor is crooked, the live view image will be as well. As a result, alignment using that view will ALWAYS be true to how you framed it. Edit: The last sentence is true with one exception, that being if the sensor or camera shifts between framing and shutter release. Steve Last edited by stevebrot; 12-14-2018 at 11:14 PM.

12-13-2018, 09:25 PM	#8
swanlefitte Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Location: Minneapolis Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,068	When you say both liveview and optical view do you mean the final photos or that looking through the optical viewfinder is unlevel when the camera is level. That would be extremely weird meaning the whole innards shifted.

12-14-2018, 10:21 PM	#9
leswott Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 51 Original Poster	Originally posted by swanlefitte When you say both liveview and optical view do you mean the final photos or that looking through the optical viewfinder is unlevel when the camera is level. That would be extremely weird meaning the whole innards shifted. Hi Live view can be straightened and the image taken is straight. Optical view is straight but the image taken is crooked. My only conclusion is that the sensor is seated crooked somehow, it was not like this always.

12-14-2018, 11:13 PM	#11
swanlefitte Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Location: Minneapolis Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,068	Definitely sounds like an unseated sensor. What's funny is that you say you can correct 7degrees where only 2 degrees is possible. Pentax K-3 II Review - Technical Info "The Pentax K-3 II can automatically correct for up to two degrees of roll in either direction if Shake Reduction is disabled, or one degree if it's enabled." "You can move the sensor left, right, up, or down, and rotate it by up to a couple of degrees, fine-tuning your composition to perfection." I wonder if it slipped past a barrier and if trying to make the picture less level if it would slide back. I wonder if you can even make it 9degrees or how many degrees both ways it will go.

12-16-2018, 09:21 AM	#13
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by leswott I have tried to contact Pentax and await a reply. They will suggest you send the camera in for adjustment and/or repair at your expense. Sorry to ask such pointed questions, but 7-10 degrees is an incredible tilt. On review of pertinent threads on this site, the usual complaint is <2 degrees. Good luck on getting this resolved. FWIW, I often have to adjust alignment in post-processing and thought my sensor might have been out of alignment. On tripod, the viewfinder and live view agreed quite nicely, though I did discover that there is slight pincushion distortion in my K-3's optical viewfinder. I also looked back through my archives and found that the photos that were out were all hand-held. My right shoulder has an old injury and apparently I was dropping that side ever so slightly when I pushed the shutter release. So yes...been there...done that. Steve I was a little surprised, but not too bothered. Most of my film SLRs have some degree of viewfinder distortion as well and such used to be a part of the better camera reviews back-in-the-day.

12-16-2018, 07:59 PM	#14
leswott Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 51 Original Poster	Originally posted by stevebrot They will suggest you send the camera in for adjustment and/or repair at your expense. Sorry to ask such pointed questions, but 7-10 degrees is an incredible tilt. On review of pertinent threads on this site, the usual complaint is <2 degrees. Good luck on getting this resolved. FWIW, I often have to adjust alignment in post-processing and thought my sensor might have been out of alignment. On tripod, the viewfinder and live view agreed quite nicely, though I did discover that there is slight pincushion distortion in my K-3's optical viewfinder. I also looked back through my archives and found that the photos that were out were all hand-held. My right shoulder has an old injury and apparently I was dropping that side ever so slightly when I pushed the shutter release. So yes...been there...done that. Steve I was a little surprised, but not too bothered. Most of my film SLRs have some degree of viewfinder distortion as well and such used to be a part of the better camera reviews back-in-the-day. Thanks for your input Steve. I agree, I have myself had to adjust horizons in the past, but not to such an extreme degree as lately, and when I compose so carefully, it is distressing to lose so many pixels. Nor has the camera suffered any distress. I await input from Pentax.