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01-28-2020, 01:07 PM   #1
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Suggestions Welcome: ES II / Super Takumar 50mm f1.4 User Manual Notice

FROM USER MANUAL:
The following two lenses will not properly fit the Pentax ES II camera body due to different mechanical design and construction: Super-Takumar 50mm f/1.4 Super-Takumar 55mm f/1.8 (with “1 .8” engraved at the left end of the diaphragm ring and “16” at the right,)


Not entirely sure if anyone will be able to give a definitive answer. Does this notice from the ES II user manual refer only to the 8 element Super-Takumar 50mm f1.4 i.e. (model 1) or does it also apply to (model 2) Super-Takumar 50mm f1.4 i.e. 7 element version. Both incidently manufactured before the introduction of the ES II.

I'm pretty confident that it does just apply to (model 1) i.e. 8 element version which is constructed with a slightly protruding rear lens element. But the manual is not specific in this regard and just refers to the Super-Takumar 50mm f1.4 which they both are of course.

I'm assuming the later Super Multi Coated and SMC variants are not an issue. I'm only guessing but I figured the big clue here would probably be the picture on the front cover of the user manual: ES II with SMC TAKUMAR 50mm f1.4 attached.

The Super-Takumar 55mm f1.8 would be an issue I believe because of the reversed aperture ring. I haven't worked out the mechanics but I'm sure the technical engineers at the Asahi factory had an inkling of an idea that it wouldn't work on the ES II ; )

Sorry I know it's not all important but would just be good to know. As I said will probably be difficult to get a definitive answer and I will go with the presumption (model 2) i.e. the 7 element version will not be a problem.


And you never know if you didn't have the manual I may have saved someone their hard earned cash or their camera even!




Thanks for any suggestions or insight!


Last edited by Joseph3795; 01-28-2020 at 09:16 PM.
01-28-2020, 04:09 PM   #2
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I can only add to the confusion unfortunately, with another warning. The Herbert Keppler book " The Asahi Pentax Way" 8th edition has this to say about the 50mm f1.4 SMC TAKUMAR 7 element lens:-

"Important! This lens can only be used on the Spotmatic, SL or models S1a (H1a) or SV (H3V) with red or orange "R" markings on the rewind knob. The 50mm f1.4 can be severely damaged if used on earlier Green "R" Pentaxes. Earlier models had 8 elements."

I read that as it will be fine on the ES-11 as the cover of that book has the same picture as the handbook. Just don't try it on cameras with a green "R". He doesn't mention any problem with earlier Super-Takumars unfortunately.


He also warns against trying to use SMC TAKUMARs on non-Pentax cameras due to the small lug on the back of the lens which keys the proper maximum aperture into ES and Spotmatic F bodies.
01-28-2020, 08:28 PM   #3
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Firstly thank you for the reply not sure that I should congratulate you on adding to the confusion though! I'm just kidding you just reminded me that I have the ninth and tenth edition's of Keppler's book the editions most relevant to the ES II. Maybe I should consider actually reading them... does anyone still read books these days???

Both edition's illustrate the ES II with SMC TAKUMAR 50mm f1.4 on the front cover as does the user manual. The notice in the user manual as you'll know from the previous post was regarding Super Takumar 50/1.4 it follows the 8 element version i.e. (model 1) is the only M42 50/1.4 with a different mechanical design and construction from the other three variants. It goes without saying then as a memorandum to my previous post it can only be a reference to this lens.

Having just read the notice in the user manual i.e. before posting it was unclear if it also referred to the Super-Takumar 50/1.4 (7 element version) i.e. (model 2) as they are both (Super-Takumar 50mm f/1.4 lenses). The other variants being Super-Multi-Coated and SMC TAKUMARS. All constructed with 7 elements.

Still, others along with myself should also find it of some interest and intrigue that you quoted from the '8th' edition of Keppler's book with the important announcement regarding the 50mm f1.4 SMC TAKUMAR 7 element lens. I say intrigue because the quote seemed to be specific to that lens. So now I'm asking or rather telling myself: Hey, wait a minute... this is the same (7 element) M42 50/1.4 as the Super Takumar (model 2) and Super-Multi-Coated Takumar lenses as described above. Then you have to ask yourself: Why? doesn't the "Important" warning about severly damaging the lens also apply???

It's possible an even earlier edition does reference these with the same warning... and it was only necessary to quote the SMC TAKUMAR 50/1.4 in this edition.



Anyone: anything to add to the confusion...

Last edited by Joseph3795; 01-28-2020 at 09:11 PM.
08-11-2020, 09:02 PM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by Joseph3795 Quote
Anyone: anything to add to the confusion...
Sorry to be late to this party.

I am opposed to adding to the confusion. I own the second lens, the ST 55/1.8 with the reverse direction aperture ring having fine knurling. It was the first of the several ST 55mm f/1.8 variants and differed from those that followed in several ways. One of those differences, one which is different from most (all?) other Super Takumar which were made, is the position of the aperture actuator pin relative to lens axis. This was standardized on later 55/1.8 and other Takumar models. It was this standardization that allowed for the design of the open-aperture metering linkage used in the Spotmatic F, Electro Spotmatc, ES, and ESII. Most third-party auto-aperture M42 lenses are incompatible as is the ST 55/1.8 v1 (reverse aperture ring with fine knurling) and will jam into, rather than pass through, the slot in the aperture ring position coupler. This is easily confirmed by slowly rotating the lens onto the mount and noting resistance approximately 3/4 turn from fully seating onto the mount. Any lens that show resistance in this way should NOT be forced further at the risk of damage to both lens and camera.

Since there is no coupling between camera and aperture ring, the camera is "ignorant" of the direction the ring turns.


Steve


Last edited by stevebrot; 08-11-2020 at 09:19 PM.
09-23-2020, 09:34 PM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by Joseph3795 Quote
FROM USER MANUAL:
The following two lenses will not properly fit the Pentax ES II camera body due to different mechanical design and construction: Super-Takumar 50mm f/1.4 Super-Takumar 55mm f/1.8 (with ď1 .8Ē engraved at the left end of the diaphragm ring and ď16Ē at the right,)


Not entirely sure if anyone will be able to give a definitive answer. Does this notice from the ES II user manual refer only to the 8 element Super-Takumar 50mm f1.4 i.e. (model 1) or does it also apply to (model 2) Super-Takumar 50mm f1.4 i.e. 7 element version. Both incidently manufactured before the introduction of the ES II.

I'm pretty confident that it does just apply to (model 1) i.e. 8 element version which is constructed with a slightly protruding rear lens element. But the manual is not specific in this regard and just refers to the Super-Takumar 50mm f1.4 which they both are of course.
I have an ESII and I just obtained a super takumar 50mm f1.4, 8 element.
I also read the warning in the ESII manual and I wish that it explained what the problem actually is.
The lens fits on the camera and seems to work correctly (apart from not allowing full aperture metering due to lacking the aperture simulator of the later smc-takumars) but I haven't dared to fire the shutter in case the problem is that the protruding rear element will foul the mirror.
Can anyone shed a light on this mysterious warning?

Last edited by Spock; 09-23-2020 at 09:39 PM.
09-23-2020, 10:44 PM - 1 Like   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Spock Quote
Can anyone shed a light on this mysterious warning?
Since there is no qualifier on the warning against the Super Takumar 50mm f/1.4, I would consider the warning to be blanket for all but the SMC/S-M-C versions. If the problem is similar to that with the early version ST 55/1.8, the incompatibility is subtle, but with possible severe damage to the aperture ring coupling mechanism if the advisory is not taken. (See my note above on how to test for that incompatibility.)

Don't assume that the S-M-C and Super Takumar 50/1.4 lens bodies are the same except for the special couplers. I only have the SMC 50/1.4 and can't do a direct comparison, but would not personally risk the using the 8-element len without carefully evaluating rear clearance with shutter locked open in "B" and observing from the rear while attaching the lens (focus set to minimum focus distance) and slowly moving the rear element back with the focus ring. Lack of clearance should be obvious.


Steve
09-23-2020, 10:48 PM   #7
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Good advice, thanks Steve.
09-25-2020, 02:30 AM   #8
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This article sheds some light on the warnings in the lens and camera manuals.
1 : 1.4 / 50 (358) 8 element - Takumar Field Guide

09-25-2020, 03:27 PM - 1 Like   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Spock Quote
This article sheds some light on the warnings in the lens and camera manuals.
1 : 1.4 / 50 (358) 8 element - Takumar Field Guide
Droo is a great reference, though he does not touch on the warnings in the ES and ESII manuals on that page.


Steve
09-25-2020, 07:58 PM - 1 Like   #10
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Steve,
out of curiosity, if the issue lies with possible (and severe) damage to the open aperture meter coupling mechanism, would not the same warning apply to the spot F? I havenít personally read the spot f manual so itís entirely possible it does, but Iíve only heard this issue before with the ES series cameras.
Finn
10-18-2020, 06:23 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by Finn Lyle Quote
Steve,
out of curiosity, if the issue lies with possible (and severe) damage to the open aperture meter coupling mechanism, would not the same warning apply to the spot F? I havenít personally read the spot f manual so itís entirely possible it does, but Iíve only heard this issue before with the ES series cameras.
Finn
I've just purchased a 50mm f1.4 Super Takumar, first version (8 element) lens. I want to use this lens as one would a preset on my MX camera and I have no need to use the in-camera meter. I have the Pentax m42 to K adaptor but cannot process all of the seemingly conflicting information regarding using this combination. Compatibility info here shows that it can be used without issue on the KX and other bodies but does not mention the MX at all. Don't want to damage my lens or body due to my ignorance. Any advice is greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

Best,

Doug
10-18-2020, 06:41 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by DougPaul Quote
I've just purchased a 50mm f1.4 Super Takumar, first version (8 element) lens. I want to use this lens as one would a preset on my MX camera and I have no need to use the in-camera meter. I have the Pentax m42 to K adaptor but cannot process all of the seemingly conflicting information regarding using this combination. Compatibility info here shows that it can be used without issue on the KX and other bodies but does not mention the MX at all. Don't want to damage my lens or body due to my ignorance. Any advice is greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

Best,

Doug
You may get a better response in this section for your inquiry, Pentax Film SLR Discussion - PentaxForums.com

Cheers
10-18-2020, 07:56 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by Finn Lyle Quote
Steve,
out of curiosity, if the issue lies with possible (and severe) damage to the open aperture meter coupling mechanism, would not the same warning apply to the spot F? I havenít personally read the spot f manual so itís entirely possible it does, but Iíve only heard this issue before with the ES series cameras.
Finn
I agree, though there is no warning in my copy of the SP F manual.


Steve
10-19-2020, 10:05 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by SharkyCA Quote
You may get a better response in this section for your inquiry, Pentax Film SLR Discussion - PentaxForums.com

Cheers
Thank you so much for your reply and good advice. This forum is a great place for information and community!

Best,
Doug
11-29-2020, 03:35 PM - 1 Like   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Spock Quote
I have an ESII and I just obtained a super takumar 50mm f1.4, 8 element.
I also read the warning in the ESII manual and I wish that it explained what the problem actually is.
The lens fits on the camera and seems to work correctly (apart from not allowing full aperture metering due to lacking the aperture simulator of the later smc-takumars) but I haven't dared to fire the shutter in case the problem is that the protruding rear element will foul the mirror.
Can anyone shed a light on this mysterious warning?
Sorry to respond so long after you posted!


The warning is certainly with regard to the 'rear element' which protrudes into the lens mount further then all the other 50mm F1.4 variants i.e. the 7 element versions. I'm uncertain if the hazard is due to the rear element potentially coming into contact with the movement of the miirror when the shutter is released. However, there is an actuater mechanism just inside the lens mount sittting at the bottom of relevant cameras this I believe pushes against a pin on the rear of the lens to control the aperture being selected as far as I understand. This could be an issue...

The later cameras after the ES era e.g. K series and later did away with this mechanism but I can find no specific info regarding this lens with these cameras. Some earlier cameras 'preceeding' the ES had a green or orange R on the film rewind crank to denote it could except the 50mm F1.4 and I am assuming as my original post this was in reference to the 8 element version of the lens. I can confirm I have used the 50mm F1.4 (8) element version safely and without any issue with the K1 it goes without saying with use of the pentax M42 to K mount screw thread adapter.

Hopefully, you can see the actuater mechanism inside the ES mount in the attached images. Notice: No actuater mechanism in the KX bayonet mount that followed.


Regards,
Joseph

---------- Post added 11-29-20 at 04:00 PM ----------

It is probably simply due to the internal dimensions of the mirror box housing the lower part of which extends closer to the lens mount on these earlier cameras.
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Last edited by Joseph3795; 11-29-2020 at 04:09 PM.
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