[telesto]

Hi All, I got into DSLR's last year with a Canon 200D (Rebel) and Sigma 50-150mm lens to take pictures of my son's hockey games. A couple of months ago I sold it and bought a K-1 and the silver 90's era FA* 80-200mm 2.8. I was generally happy with it, but I'm noticing some of the colors appeared "grainy", especially blue, and a little black (see the attached picture).

I shot JPEG+DNG (JPEG is attached), with ISO 2000 or 2500, I did the white balance myself, and set color to Auto or Natural. I tried playing with the RAW file in AfterShot, but didn't manage to do any better...but I'm new to post-processing RAW files, so maybe there is a way to clean it up, I don't know.

In any case, is this typical of the K-1? Or the FA* lens? Or am I doing something wrong?
Thanks!

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[WorksAsIntended]

I cannot really see what you descripe. The jpeg artefacts by the compression algorithm are too much to see this. Any chance you can share the raw file?
What I do see is, that it is hard to see the actual focusing point and that I get slight color edges because of a presumably slightly wrong focusing. Is this what you mean? Generally speaking the dark blue and black parts are hard to process nicely, especialy with that kind of artificial lightning.
Btw, this is a great example where the player in the left third of the picture wouls be really great and more feet less head room would be benefitial too. Juat as a quick thought.

[stevebrot]

In any case, is this typical of the K-1? Or the FA* lens? Or am I doing something wrong?
Thanks!

I am not seeing the graininess, but it may be the monitor on my laptop. Until I can take a look on my main workstation, it is hard to say exactly what is going on here except that the photo is underexposed. Arena lighting may also be a consideration. I will update when I can take a better look.

Question: Is this example a crop? If not, do you have a full-resolution (100%) crop of the player's right shoulder area to share?


Steve

[pschlute]

I too cannot see any grain, but perhaps because the image is too small (forum uploads have a max size).

It is however quite underexposed which wont help, especially at ISO 2000. When there is a lot of white in the image you need to overexpose what the meter tells you.

[Wheatfield]

You are about two stops under exposed. That is guaranteed to increase grain (noise).

[UncleVanya]

I too can't see it yet. Maybe a 100% crop would help. Also I can attest that the FA* 80-200 I had was better than the DA* 200 I own at CA and was sharp and lovely at all focal lengths.

[WorksAsIntended]

I too cannot see any grain, but perhaps because the image is too small (forum uploads have a max size).

It is however quite underexposed which wont help, especially at ISO 2000. When there is a lot of white in the image you need to overexpose what the meter tells you.

In fact exposure with the meter will jump way too much in those situations. If using full matrix depending on the amount of white areas, when using any spot type depending on the players team color and where exactly he is hit.
This is one of the very clear cases for full manual mode, esp as the lightning usually is pretty much the same in the whole playing area.

[Wheatfield]

I too can't see it yet. Maybe a 100% crop would help. Also I can attest that the FA* 80-200 I had was better than the DA* 200 I own at CA and was sharp and lovely at all focal lengths.

With the exposure being what it is, noise is guaranteed. This isn't a camera fault, it is a user error. I believe an earlier post alluded to underexposure being brought on by the large amount of white (ice) in the viewfinder. If the image is cropped, that will just make things worse.

[mikesbike]

With the exposure being what it is, noise is guaranteed. This isn't a camera fault, it is a user error. I believe an earlier post alluded to underexposure being brought on by the large amount of white (ice) in the viewfinder. If the image is cropped, that will just make things worse.

I agree with Wheatfield's assessment. I sometimes shoot hockey, though usually roller hockey- club or college. A bright floor or ice can fool the meter. I see you are shooting in Manual mode- a good idea, because the background changes constantly, changing the light meter readings, though exposure of the players remains more or less constant. But believing the meter's reading in this case is tricky and misleading. Your settings look ok as far as shutter speed of 1/500 sec being adequate to freeze action of players, using the wide-open f/2.8 aperture, but additionally for typical indoor rink lighting you'll need at least ISO 2500, or better yet 3200 for those settings. If you can find a tan, green, blue, or gray mid-tone area under the same lights, switch to spot meter then take a reading from that area to get a better idea of exposure. You can temporarily switch to manual focus for that purpose so your lens does not hunt, since you do not necessarily need to be in focus to take meter readings. You'll probably find the ISO settings I mentioned to be verified.

After such use, just be sure to restore your standard settings. If you forget and leave the meter on spot, you will no doubt be getting many odd exposures when subsequently using your camera in one of the auto-exposure modes! As to focus, you won't have any AF!

[stevebrot]

But believing the meter's reading in this case is tricky and misleading. Your settings look ok as far as shutter speed of 1/500 sec being adequate to freeze action of players, using the wide-open f/2.8 aperture, but additionally for typical indoor rink lighting you'll need at least ISO 2500, or better yet 3200 for those settings.

I agree, but the example was shot at ISO 2000 and is at least two stops underexposed. The math does not look good for this one.

If you can find a tan, green, blue, or gray mid-tone area under the same lights, switch to spot meter then take a reading from that area to get a better idea of exposure.

That is not a bad option, though I would suggest putting an 18% gray card in the bag and use it for both meter and white balance, taking readings for both at the boards before the game starts.


Steve

[telesto]

Thanks for all the replies I was using spot for focus, but not metering. Should I use spot metering for hockey? I was trying to keep the exposure zeroed, but the level did jump around a bit, so I could have been under exposed. Altho I also do +1/3 on the +/- thing (balance?) The original pic was not cropped, I put a cropped pic below to show what I mean; to me the other colors look ok, but for some reason it's only the blue (and a little black) that looks grainy to me. I've taken alot of hockey pics in the last year, in alot of dark inc rinks, and for some reason I don't recall my Canon or K-70 showing such grainy blue colors. I was really hoping the full-frame would help improve resolution quality, so I'm kind of confused here.
...oh, and for those who "don't see it", maybe look on a better monitor, on my laptop screen it looks OK to me also, but when I go to my desktop with a high res monitor, then I see the grainy colors.

[telesto]

Here is one more example from another day at a different ice rink. I was focused on the goalie, and he looks fine (to me anyway ), but look at #17 black, the word "Blaser" written in blue above his number, again the other colors look OK, but only the blue appears grainy.

[telesto]

Here is a cropped pic taken with my K-70 and Sigma 70-200 lens. It's also a dark rink, probably under exposed, but the blue seems "smoother" somehow, and not as grainy.
...or ok, now I'm not sure...maybe it's just me? Or maybe exposure, or...? I'm confused...
Generally, my manual settings are F2.8-3.5, 1/320 to 1/640 and ISO1600-2500. I was afraid to jack ISO up too high, because I was trying to avoid grainy pictures, but maybe I should? At what point (with the K-1) does noise from ISO start to become noticable? Above 3200 or so?

[cjn314]

I shoot a bit of lacrosse under lights here in Aus and get decent results with ISO 4000 and even slightly higher. I will deliberated underexpose a little to keep shutter speed up and then fix in post. Usually I shoot in Av mode and the camera does a great job with exposure.

[pschlute]

I was using spot for focus, but not metering. Should I use spot metering for hockey? I was trying to keep the exposure zeroed, but the level did jump around a bit, so I could have been under exposed

You should use matrix metering and do a few test shots first. The lighting should not change during your session. Use Manual exposure and over-expose from what the camera tells you, two stops should be about right. Check with the histogram then leave the exposure setting for your shoot. Spot metering will be hopeless for these kind of action shots.

but look at #17 black, the word "Blaser" written in blue above his number, again the other colors look OK, but only the blue appears grainy

I cannot see the grain, but again the image may be too small.

..oh, and for those who "don't see it", maybe look on a better monitor,

I use a calibrated Eizo monitor