Is using a light meter that big of a deal?

bikehead90 · 03-08-2020, 06:02 AM

I grew up during the transition of analogue to digital, and fortunately (or unfortunately) never learned/needed to use a light meter. Now I shoot almost 50/50 digital to analogue with an MX or ME Super, both with built-in light meters. However, I’m looking at getting a Leica M6, and I’m really failing to justify the price hike of the TTL model over the regular. I know there’s a litany of light meter apps, but it just seems like it defeats the purpose of photography, As well as being a bit cumbersome pulling out your phone, checking the light, putting your phone away, compose your shot, rinse and repeat. Advice? Thoughts?

aaacb · 03-08-2020, 06:27 AM

If you have a mechanical camera, try removing the batteries for a few rolls. If not, try ignoring the meter if you can avoid looking at it

I've shot a bunch on a Konica S2 rangefinder with more or less no metering*, and it went surprisingly well.
These are from the last roll, all "sunny 16" guessed exposure without even checking the meter. The scanner seems to compensate for most if not all of the exposure inaccuracy. When looking at the negative I can tell some frames are off, but overall quality is fine for me.

digital conversion to bw

*By "more or less no meter" I mean: the camera has a working meter, but I only put 1.5v batteries instead of the ones which are older, expensive, and with lower voltage, so my meter would only kick in at many stops off.

FWIW, I did not have much luck with phone apps, they were all significantly off compared to my dslr, even with a lens that about the same 28mm angle. It's something you can test with your current camera in manual mode, maybe it works for you.

**StiffLegged** · 03-08-2020, 06:39 AM - **1 Like**

I’d either get the TTL model or get a proper light meter to use with an unmetered version. Versatile though phones are, I would only trust a genuine photographic light meter for transparency film especially.

**TwoUptons** · 03-08-2020, 06:58 AM - **1 Like**

The M6 has a meter...
The TTL variant only adds TTL flash compatibility.
So for ambient light, there's no difference.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't pick up a decent meter anyway if you want one.
And at that point, get one with incident light capability...

I'll add that I use a light meter app when shooting meterless cameras, and pulling out the phone is no more annoying than pulling out a light meter, and I generally have it on me anyway...

I probably would use a "real" meter if I shot slide film...

-Eric

Last edited by TwoUptons; 03-08-2020 at 07:02 AM. Reason: I do use an app for that...

photoptimist · 03-08-2020, 07:00 AM - **2 Likes**

Given that the purpose of photography is to get the image you want and that you presumably do not want the image to be too dark or too light, then you'll probably want some way to know what settings to use to get the right exposure on the M6.

Some types of photography don't need metering -- built-in or standalone. Rules like "sunny f/16" work for a lot of out-door shooting. Astrophotography seldom uses a meter. Pure flash photography or other scenarios with photographer-controlled lighting need no metering (unless you like to confirm things).

However, a lot of shooting scenarios (changing sun/cloud/shade, indirect lighting, unknown indoor lighting) do benefit from some type of metering. As you've discovered, a built-in TTL light meter and auto-exposure means one less thing to worry about before pressing the button.

A standalone light meter doesn't defeat the purpose of the photography. It's there to help you accomplish it. In fact, a standalone meter being used to measure incident light is superior to a camera's built-in meter that measures reflected light. Built-in meters are easily fooled by bright and dark subjects. A standalone meter might also make you a better photographer in two ways. First it can increase your awareness of how the light is changing (or not changing) from shot to shot to control the exposure for the lighting, not the subject. With this awareness, you might find you don't need to pull out the light meter for every shot, only when the lighting change drastically. Second, a light meter (especially a spot meter) can increase your awareness of a vast range of reflectances/brightnesses in the subject matter and lead to a zone-system-like understanding and control of how you want the tonality of different parts of the scene recorded as different tonalities in the final image. With this awareness, you might find that you slow down, use the meter a lot, and even change the composition to more carefully control the image.

Unregistered User · 03-08-2020, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by bikehead90

I grew up during the transition of analogue to digital, and fortunately (or unfortunately) never learned/needed to use a light meter. Now I shoot almost 50/50 digital to analogue with an MX or ME Super, both with built-in light meters. However, I’m looking at getting a Leica M6, and I’m really failing to justify the price hike of the TTL model over the regular. I know there’s a litany of light meter apps, but it just seems like it defeats the purpose of photography, As well as being a bit cumbersome pulling out your phone, checking the light, putting your phone away, compose your shot, rinse and repeat. Advice? Thoughts?

I would not worry so much. I grew up when most SLR's were not equipped with a lightmeter. And I think I learned most of my photographic skills at that time. I know what a diaphragm is, what aperture means, what a shutter does. I think with all the supporting equipment build in or added stand alone a lot of the charm of making and taking pictures got lost. With automatic exposure I wondered who was making the picture. Even now with a DSLR my favourite setting is manual. I try to avoid automatic, but sometimes it comes in handy, but most of the time I do not like the way a picture is exposed. I always did a lot with over- or underexposure. And when in doubt, make two or more pictures with changed settings.

**ChrisPlatt** · 03-08-2020, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by TwoUptons

The M6 has a meter...

What he said...

Chris

Bassat · 03-08-2020, 10:31 AM - **1 Like**

I tried 3 or 4 phone-based light meter apps. All crap, cumbersome, confusing, strangely inaccurate at times. I have given up phone based light meters for two other, much easier to use applications. Oh, my cameras w/o light meters are 6x6 and 35mm folders. The first easy-peasy app I use is 'sunny 16'. Decent film has enough latitude to miss by 3 stops w/o effect on the final photo. I don't think I've ever missed by more than 1 stop. My second easy-peasy app is a Canon 650D Rebel and 24mm STM lens. Very small package, same verfical FOV as 80mm on 6X6. And provides EXIF data for future reference. And it is a handy little camera in its own right.

Gareth.Ig · 03-08-2020, 11:14 AM

Regarding available light photography, I understand their is really no difference in the metering used in the M6 TTL and non-TTL versions. The TTL in an M6 makes a difference for flash photography only.

The real question is is the $600-$800 difference between an M4-P and M6 worth it? You could do what I do, M4-P for sunny 16 and Pentax MX for everything else, that's 2 cameras for less than the price of a bog-standard M6.

texandrews · 03-08-2020, 11:48 AM - **1 Like**

....especially the last paragraph. Using an incident meter to understand the light in a scene can be very helpful, especially if you are shooting from different angles. Spot metering with a mind towards pre-visualization (a la Zone System) can mean the difference between an acceptable shot and a truly good one.

stevebrot · 03-08-2020, 12:15 PM - **1 Like**

I have several film cameras that lack built-in meters, but carry a compact Sekonic L-208 in the bag even when shooting with metered cameras. Being able to able to meter the subject directly to place exposure or to take an incident reading are both extremely useful. On a related note, a gray card is also always in the bag for similar reasons.

FWIW...Things may have changed, but the last time I looked at light meter apps for my phone, they all sucked. Sunny-16 is good as long as latitude and season of year and time of day are in one's favor.*

Steve

* Around these parts, it is hard to get a true sunny-16 in other than mid-summer and then only at mid-day.

normhead · 03-08-2020, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by bikehead90

I grew up during the transition of analogue to digital, and fortunately (or unfortunately) never learned/needed to use a light meter. Now I shoot almost 50/50 digital to analogue with an MX or ME Super, both with built-in light meters. However, I’m looking at getting a Leica M6, and I’m really failing to justify the price hike of the TTL model over the regular. I know there’s a litany of light meter apps, but it just seems like it defeats the purpose of photography, As well as being a bit cumbersome pulling out your phone, checking the light, putting your phone away, compose your shot, rinse and repeat. Advice? Thoughts?

After year of shooting in Photo Arts, I was so used to light sources I could guesstimate an exposure, and was right such a high percentage of the time I stopped even checking.

That being said, if I could go back, I'd buy the Spotmatic instead of the SV. The biggest take away being, TTL is more accurate than even a spot meter. It knows exactly what you're dealing with.

**TwoUptons** · 03-08-2020, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by normhead

After year of shooting in Photo Arts, I was so used to light sources I could guesstimate an exposure, and was right such a high percentage of the time I stopped even checking.

That being said, if I could go back, I'd buy the Spotmatic instead of the SV. The biggest take away being, TTL is more accurate than even a spot meter. It knows exactly what you're dealing with.

My problem with handheld meters (and this applies to the phone app as well) is making sure I really have everything agreeing...
Film speed set right? Or is it set to the film in another camera?
Is the aperture the meter giving me really for the shutter speed I set?
Is that even a shutter speed I should be using here?
Keeping up with all that is a lot easier on the MX where I can see aperture and shutter speed in the finder next to the meter lights.
And I only have to remember to set the film speed once

-Eric

BROO · 03-08-2020, 02:36 PM

This might help.

LEICA M6 and M6 TTL

"The M6 (1984-1998) has only two simple > < LED arrows in its finder for the meter. There is TTL ambient light metering, but no TTL flash control, no flash-ready bolt in the finder, and no central "OK" LED.

The newer M6 TTL (1998-2002) added TTL flash and a bigger, better shutter dial, and that's about it. For serious photographers, either are spectacular cameras."

**TomB_tx** · 03-08-2020, 03:50 PM - **1 Like**

Leica can no longer repair the M6TTL electronics due to obsolete parts, so some owners now have meterless cameras. However the M6 parts are still available. I’d stick with the plain M6. I’ve used mine since 1985, and its my favorite meter readout; even the latest M10 uses the same style in manual mode. The current production film MP is basically a modified M6 design.

03-08-2020, 06:02 AM	#1
bikehead90 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2018 Photos: Gallery Posts: 193	Is using a light meter that big of a deal? I grew up during the transition of analogue to digital, and fortunately (or unfortunately) never learned/needed to use a light meter. Now I shoot almost 50/50 digital to analogue with an MX or ME Super, both with built-in light meters. However, I’m looking at getting a Leica M6, and I’m really failing to justify the price hike of the TTL model over the regular. I know there’s a litany of light meter apps, but it just seems like it defeats the purpose of photography, As well as being a bit cumbersome pulling out your phone, checking the light, putting your phone away, compose your shot, rinse and repeat. Advice? Thoughts?

03-08-2020, 06:27 AM	#2
aaacb Pentaxian Join Date: May 2016 Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,725	If you have a mechanical camera, try removing the batteries for a few rolls. If not, try ignoring the meter if you can avoid looking at it I've shot a bunch on a Konica S2 rangefinder with more or less no metering, and it went surprisingly well. These are from the last roll, all "sunny 16" guessed exposure without even checking the meter. The scanner seems to compensate for most if not all of the exposure inaccuracy. When looking at the negative I can tell some frames are off, but overall quality is fine for me. digital conversion to bw By "more or less no meter" I mean: the camera has a working meter, but I only put 1.5v batteries instead of the ones which are older, expensive, and with lower voltage, so my meter would only kick in at many stops off. FWIW, I did not have much luck with phone apps, they were all significantly off compared to my dslr, even with a lens that about the same 28mm angle. It's something you can test with your current camera in manual mode, maybe it works for you. Last edited by aaacb; 03-08-2020 at 06:41 AM.

03-08-2020, 11:48 AM - 1 Like	#10
texandrews Moderator Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Baltimore Photos: Albums Posts: 3,392	What photoptimist said, ....especially the last paragraph. Using an incident meter to understand the light in a scene can be very helpful, especially if you are shooting from different angles. Spot metering with a mind towards pre-visualization (a la Zone System) can mean the difference between an acceptable shot and a truly good one.

03-08-2020, 12:15 PM - 1 Like	#11
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	I have several film cameras that lack built-in meters, but carry a compact Sekonic L-208 in the bag even when shooting with metered cameras. Being able to able to meter the subject directly to place exposure or to take an incident reading are both extremely useful. On a related note, a gray card is also always in the bag for similar reasons. FWIW...Things may have changed, but the last time I looked at light meter apps for my phone, they all sucked. Sunny-16 is good as long as latitude and season of year and time of day are in one's favor.* Steve * Around these parts, it is hard to get a true sunny-16 in other than mid-summer and then only at mid-day. Last edited by stevebrot; 03-08-2020 at 12:29 PM.

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03-08-2020, 06:39 AM - 1 Like	#3
StiffLegged Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2018 Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,617	I’d either get the TTL model or get a proper light meter to use with an unmetered version. Versatile though phones are, I would only trust a genuine photographic light meter for transparency film especially.

03-08-2020, 06:58 AM - 1 Like	#4
TwoUptons Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,213	The M6 has a meter... The TTL variant only adds TTL flash compatibility. So for ambient light, there's no difference. That doesn't mean you shouldn't pick up a decent meter anyway if you want one. And at that point, get one with incident light capability... I'll add that I use a light meter app when shooting meterless cameras, and pulling out the phone is no more annoying than pulling out a light meter, and I generally have it on me anyway... I probably would use a "real" meter if I shot slide film... -Eric Last edited by TwoUptons; 03-08-2020 at 07:02 AM. Reason: I do use an app for that...

03-08-2020, 07:00 AM - 2 Likes	#5
photoptimist Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2016 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,123	Given that the purpose of photography is to get the image you want and that you presumably do not want the image to be too dark or too light, then you'll probably want some way to know what settings to use to get the right exposure on the M6. Some types of photography don't need metering -- built-in or standalone. Rules like "sunny f/16" work for a lot of out-door shooting. Astrophotography seldom uses a meter. Pure flash photography or other scenarios with photographer-controlled lighting need no metering (unless you like to confirm things). However, a lot of shooting scenarios (changing sun/cloud/shade, indirect lighting, unknown indoor lighting) do benefit from some type of metering. As you've discovered, a built-in TTL light meter and auto-exposure means one less thing to worry about before pressing the button. A standalone light meter doesn't defeat the purpose of the photography. It's there to help you accomplish it. In fact, a standalone meter being used to measure incident light is superior to a camera's built-in meter that measures reflected light. Built-in meters are easily fooled by bright and dark subjects. A standalone meter might also make you a better photographer in two ways. First it can increase your awareness of how the light is changing (or not changing) from shot to shot to control the exposure for the lighting, not the subject. With this awareness, you might find you don't need to pull out the light meter for every shot, only when the lighting change drastically. Second, a light meter (especially a spot meter) can increase your awareness of a vast range of reflectances/brightnesses in the subject matter and lead to a zone-system-like understanding and control of how you want the tonality of different parts of the scene recorded as different tonalities in the final image. With this awareness, you might find that you slow down, use the meter a lot, and even change the composition to more carefully control the image.

03-08-2020, 08:35 AM	#6
Unregistered User Guest	Originally posted by bikehead90 I grew up during the transition of analogue to digital, and fortunately (or unfortunately) never learned/needed to use a light meter. Now I shoot almost 50/50 digital to analogue with an MX or ME Super, both with built-in light meters. However, I’m looking at getting a Leica M6, and I’m really failing to justify the price hike of the TTL model over the regular. I know there’s a litany of light meter apps, but it just seems like it defeats the purpose of photography, As well as being a bit cumbersome pulling out your phone, checking the light, putting your phone away, compose your shot, rinse and repeat. Advice? Thoughts? I would not worry so much. I grew up when most SLR's were not equipped with a lightmeter. And I think I learned most of my photographic skills at that time. I know what a diaphragm is, what aperture means, what a shutter does. I think with all the supporting equipment build in or added stand alone a lot of the charm of making and taking pictures got lost. With automatic exposure I wondered who was making the picture. Even now with a DSLR my favourite setting is manual. I try to avoid automatic, but sometimes it comes in handy, but most of the time I do not like the way a picture is exposed. I always did a lot with over- or underexposure. And when in doubt, make two or more pictures with changed settings.

03-08-2020, 10:17 AM	#7
ChrisPlatt Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Rockaway Beach NYC Posts: 7,694	Originally posted by TwoUptons The M6 has a meter... What he said... Chris

03-08-2020, 10:31 AM - 1 Like	#8
Bassat Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Osceola, IN Posts: 63	I tried 3 or 4 phone-based light meter apps. All crap, cumbersome, confusing, strangely inaccurate at times. I have given up phone based light meters for two other, much easier to use applications. Oh, my cameras w/o light meters are 6x6 and 35mm folders. The first easy-peasy app I use is 'sunny 16'. Decent film has enough latitude to miss by 3 stops w/o effect on the final photo. I don't think I've ever missed by more than 1 stop. My second easy-peasy app is a Canon 650D Rebel and 24mm STM lens. Very small package, same verfical FOV as 80mm on 6X6. And provides EXIF data for future reference. And it is a handy little camera in its own right.

03-08-2020, 11:14 AM	#9
Gareth.Ig Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Cochrane, AB Photos: Gallery Posts: 508	Regarding available light photography, I understand their is really no difference in the metering used in the M6 TTL and non-TTL versions. The TTL in an M6 makes a difference for flash photography only. The real question is is the $600-$800 difference between an M4-P and M6 worth it? You could do what I do, M4-P for sunny 16 and Pentax MX for everything else, that's 2 cameras for less than the price of a bog-standard M6.

03-08-2020, 12:24 PM	#12
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by bikehead90 I grew up during the transition of analogue to digital, and fortunately (or unfortunately) never learned/needed to use a light meter. Now I shoot almost 50/50 digital to analogue with an MX or ME Super, both with built-in light meters. However, I’m looking at getting a Leica M6, and I’m really failing to justify the price hike of the TTL model over the regular. I know there’s a litany of light meter apps, but it just seems like it defeats the purpose of photography, As well as being a bit cumbersome pulling out your phone, checking the light, putting your phone away, compose your shot, rinse and repeat. Advice? Thoughts? After year of shooting in Photo Arts, I was so used to light sources I could guesstimate an exposure, and was right such a high percentage of the time I stopped even checking. That being said, if I could go back, I'd buy the Spotmatic instead of the SV. The biggest take away being, TTL is more accurate than even a spot meter. It knows exactly what you're dealing with.

03-08-2020, 01:41 PM	#13
TwoUptons Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,213	Originally posted by normhead After year of shooting in Photo Arts, I was so used to light sources I could guesstimate an exposure, and was right such a high percentage of the time I stopped even checking. That being said, if I could go back, I'd buy the Spotmatic instead of the SV. The biggest take away being, TTL is more accurate than even a spot meter. It knows exactly what you're dealing with. My problem with handheld meters (and this applies to the phone app as well) is making sure I really have everything agreeing... Film speed set right? Or is it set to the film in another camera? Is the aperture the meter giving me really for the shutter speed I set? Is that even a shutter speed I should be using here? Keeping up with all that is a lot easier on the MX where I can see aperture and shutter speed in the finder next to the meter lights. And I only have to remember to set the film speed once -Eric

03-08-2020, 02:36 PM	#14
BROO Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 655	This might help. LEICA M6 and M6 TTL "The M6 (1984-1998) has only two simple > < LED arrows in its finder for the meter. There is TTL ambient light metering, but no TTL flash control, no flash-ready bolt in the finder, and no central "OK" LED. The newer M6 TTL (1998-2002) added TTL flash and a bigger, better shutter dial, and that's about it. For serious photographers, either are spectacular cameras."

03-08-2020, 03:50 PM - 1 Like	#15
TomB_tx Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,446	Leica can no longer repair the M6TTL electronics due to obsolete parts, so some owners now have meterless cameras. However the M6 parts are still available. I’d stick with the plain M6. I’ve used mine since 1985, and its my favorite meter readout; even the latest M10 uses the same style in manual mode. The current production film MP is basically a modified M6 design.