[sillo38]

Hi Guys,

I've searched all over for the answer before asking, but can't seem to find any definitive results so here I am. I have a 165mm f4 leaf shutter I love for use with flash, but my one gripe with the lens is the close focus distance. I bought the 3 ring extension tube set and found an old thread saying they may not work with the LS lens. I mounted it up and fire it without any film and everything seemed to fire properly and i don't see any reason why they wouldn't be compatible when looking at the operation. As long as the extension tube can trip the aperture tab the leaf shutter will fire, which it does.

So can anyone give me a definitive yes or no on if they are compatible with eachother, otherwise some test shots are in order.

Thanks in advance.

[gofour3]

Hi Guys,

I've searched all over for the answer before asking, but can't seem to find any definitive results so here I am. I have a 165mm f4 leaf shutter I love for use with flash, but my one gripe with the lens is the close focus distance. I bought the 3 ring extension tube set and found an old thread saying they may not work with the LS lens. I mounted it up and fire it without any film and everything seemed to fire properly and i don't see any reason why they wouldn't be compatible when looking at the operation. As long as the extension tube can trip the aperture tab the leaf shutter will fire, which it does.

So can anyone give me a definitive yes or no on if they are compatible with eachother, otherwise some test shots are in order.

Thanks in advance.

Welcome to the forum!

Nope you can't use extension tubes or rear converters in the Leaf-Shutter mode. You can in the focal plane shutter mode.

See the review section for some more info:

SMC Pentax 67 / SMC Pentax-6x7 165mm F4 Leaf Shutter Reviews - 67 Telephoto Primes - Pentax Lens Reviews & Lens Database

Phil.

[sillo38]

Thanks! That's actually the post I was referring too. That's the only place I can find that mentions anything regarding pairing the two. None of the manuals I've found mention if they pair or not.

Do you know specifically why? When I had the lens mounted to the extension tube in LS mode, everything functioned exactly like it normally would when I test fired it. Focal plane was set to 1/8 and all the LS speeds fired and the aperture stopped down properly. Do the extension of the aperture linkage create some lag in the system? Otherwise I couldn't see any reason that would make the two incompatible.

[gofour3]

This thread has a copy of the 165/4 LS manual on page 2, you can also PM me and I'll send you a copy.

Pentax 67 165mm Leaf Shutter doesn't always fire in Auto Aperture - Page 2 - PentaxForums.com

If you use a non LS lens with extension tubes you have to move the lens AUTO/MAN lever to MAN to get a meter reading. With the 165/4 in LS mode you are using the camera the differently, so that might be the reason??

Phil.

[pentaxus]

The issue is when you start stacking, the slop in extra levers it is tough to guarantee that everything will work properly. I used a Takumar 90mm LS lens on my 645 with flash and a TTL setup that I made and with extension tubes. I never had any problems. I can, however, see how too much slop in the system could make things unusable.

[tuco]

Give it a try. I just attached my 165 LS to an extension tube and I also see the LS feature works (every time). So what's stopping it from taking a picture?

EDIT: And my AF 400T flash successfully fired.

[Silent Street]

Page 3 of the user manual for the 165mm LS lens explicitly states:

When using this lens with the 67 accessories such as extension tubes, rear converters etc., the leaf shutter cannot be used.

If you want to use extension tubes etc., the 90mm LS lens is the better choice with no encumbrances.

A 165LS lens was serviced here in Australia a few weeks ago as a result of the user using mirror lock-up and entering an unrecoverable jam in LS mode. The resulting service cost (and unavoidable damage to the lens in getting to the leaf shutter) far exceeded the nett value of the lens, so it was sold for parts.

[sillo38]

A 165LS lens was serviced here in Australia a few weeks ago as a result of the user using mirror lock-up and entering an unrecoverable jam in LS mode. The resulting service cost (and unavoidable damage to the lens in getting to the leaf shutter) far exceeded the nett value of the lens, so it was sold for parts.

I just have a hard time understanding where an issue would occur with the extension tubes. As another user said above the only reason I could think of them not being compatible is the extension of the aperture lever (not sure of the nomenclature for that part) creates enough mechanical slop that the shutter may not fire at exactly the right time. The extension tube doesn't really add any serious complexity or interfering parts that would cause damage.

I'm going to shoot a test roll when I get a chance and I'll report back.

[tuco]

I'm going to shoot a test roll when I get a chance and I'll report back.

I think I'll try it too avoiding mirror lock up and slowing down the camera body shutter speed to 1/4 sec in lieu of the maximum allowed of 1/8 sec for the 165LS ( here is where built-up tolerances in the ext tube linkage may be a factor). My 6x7 and 67 cameras are configured with a waist level finder. The flash not firing is common on my 6x7 and 67 cameras. The Pentax flash terminal is not a snug fit and the cord connection can become loose. Having a locking feature like what Zeiss does on some of their System V camera lenses would be sweet.

[tuco]

Pentax 67, 165mm LS, #2 Ext Tube, 400TMY, D-23 1+1

Flash sync lens @ 1/60s, camera body @ 1/4s, Transmitter connected to the lens.
The Extension Tube Manual gives exposure compensation for most the mild telephotos at 1.9X +/- 0.1.

[gofour3]

I think what Pentax was trying to say in the 165/4 LS manual is that using MLU, extension tubes or rear converters is not recommended and not that it will not work period.

Just like Gary mentioned with using MLU, it may work a dozen times and then the LS jams. Using extension tubes/rear converters may cause a similar issue, so you could be playing Russian Roulette with your lens.

I'm sure Pentax bench tested this lens repeatedly using different scenarios/accessories and at some point had an issue with extension tubes and that's why it's mentioned in the manual.

It's your lens, so of course if you want to ignore the warning from Pentax it's up to you.

Phil.

[tuco]

Just like Gary mentioned with using MLU, it may work a dozen times and then the LS jams. Using extension tubes/rear converters may cause a similar issue, so you could be playing Russian Roulette with your lens
Phil.

The leaf shutter is triggered by body. The extension tube just extends that level. It's going to trip the lens or not. Where and how that can lock up the mirror is beyond me.

[Silent Street]

The leaf shutter is triggered by body. The extension tube just extends that level. It's going to trip the lens or not. Where and how that can lock up the mirror is beyond me.

The statement published by Pentax in their own instructions was made clear earlier.

Mirror lock-up cannot be used in leaf shutter mode with the 165mmLS lens.

How a user perceives the mechanical coupling between the lens and the 6x7 / 67 body, or the lens, converter and camera body does not change, dilute or dispose of long-standing, published warnings -- warnings that, yes, people have cheerfully challenged, up to the point where an unexpected fault occurs and the lens enters an unrecoverable state. A few of these people (beginners striding out with the 67 and 165LS for the first time) have pleaded ignorance in unrolling their misery to me personally in correspondence. I derive great joy from writing a treatise on respect for engineers, and I write that treatise with a whip.

I confidently side with Phil's observation that Pentax would have carried out a lot of testing on what happens, when, how and why before the lens was released to the market. You do know that the 90mm LS is able to be used in leaf shutter mode with the mirror lock-up functional. An examination of the internal arrangement of leaf shutter and attendant mechanisms compared to the more generously allowable 90mm may prove a revelation.

Here's an interesting parallel: would you actually think the meter coupling chain on TTL prism-equipped 67 bodies 'just will not break' if you removed/replaced the lens and TTL prism in any order you please, other than the order Pentax specifically recommended...?

[tuco]

Don't use ML. Look at the rear element/aperture lever of both a LS and regular lens. How does a extension tube know there is a leaf shutter lens attached? It doesn't. They function identically to the camera and the extension tube. If you can accidentally lock up a mirror with a LS lens you can lock it up with a regular lens using an extension tube.

[sillo38]

Pentax 67, 165mm LS, #2 Ext Tube, 400TMY, D-23 1+1

Flash sync lens @ 1/60s, camera body @ 1/4s, Transmitter connected to the lens.
The Extension Tube Manual gives exposure compensation for most the mild telephotos at 1.9X +/- 0.1.

Awesome! I had a feeling it would work and it's nice to overcome the only real issue I have had with this lens. Now I can get some close up head shots with flash.

Here's an interesting parallel: would you actually think the meter coupling chain on TTL prism-equipped 67 bodies 'just will not break' if you removed/replaced the lens and TTL prism in any order you please, other than the order Pentax specifically recommended...?

The thing with that is just by examining how the metering chain functions and links the TTL prism and lens you can see why that procedure is recommend. With non metered finders it doesn't matter at all because the chain isn't connecting to anhything. The extension tube and LS lens combo, at least to me, is a lot less obvious and I still don't see how they would cause an incompatibility issue. Granted, I'm not a camera designer and don't know everything about this camera so YMMV.

I also have no intention of using MLU in leaf shutter mode and understand why they won't work together. When MLU is engaged the aperture lever is triggered and the lens will stop down. In LS mode this will fire the shutter.