[Selvadero]

Another beginner question. I have read the other posts on this, but did not find this question answered. I would prefer to simply have the camera save in DNG instead of PEF because DNG is compatible with so many other programs without having to load a conversion. The only downside I could find on the previous posts was that the files in DNG are a bit larger than PEF.

So my question: Is anything lost at all in the RAW data when you have the camera save the RAW files in DNG instead of the proprietary PEF?

[stevebrot]

So my question: Is anything lost at all in the RAW data when you have the camera save the RAW files in DNG instead of the proprietary PEF?

The two formats are fully data equivalent and may even be data identical; at least that is the conventional wisdom. It may be possible to do an extract and comparison using available tools, though it would be a low priority around my house.


Steve

[ismaelg]

So my question: Is anything lost at all in the RAW data when you have the camera save the RAW files in DNG instead of the proprietary PEF?

Short answer: No.
Long answer: I don't think so. I didn't notice any difference when I played with that a few years ago. I use DNG on my bodies that support it for sw compatibility and PEF on those that don't (K100D Super).

Thanks,

[Not a Number]

Not really. In theory Raw files as just containers for a TIF and differ how and what metadata they store along with the TIF.

[stevebrot]

Not really. In theory Raw files as just containers for a TIF and differ how and what metadata they store along with the TIF.

???

Forgive my being a bit pedantic (cringe). What you state is a common and understandable misconception based on the similarity of names between TIFF image files (a proprietary Adobe standard for raster image data) and the TIFF/EP ISO file format standard, along with several historic factors. While some RAW file types (DNG, NEF, PEF, and others) are TIFF/EP compliant,* they do not typically wrap TIFF image files and do not contain raster image data (pixels) per se except for previews.** A full explanation would be badly off-topic, but the Wikipedia article on TIFF/EP provides a summary.

TIFF/EP - Wikipedia


Steve

* Meaning that they have internal "file system" structures as defined by the TIFF/EP ISO 12234-2 standard.

** To make things even more confusing, some TIFF image viewing software will extract and display the full-size preview JPEG from a Pentax-created DNG or PEF when opening files of those types.

[Wheatfield]

Another beginner question. I have read the other posts on this, but did not find this question answered. I would prefer to simply have the camera save in DNG instead of PEF because DNG is compatible with so many other programs without having to load a conversion. The only downside I could find on the previous posts was that the files in DNG are a bit larger than PEF.

So my question: Is anything lost at all in the RAW data when you have the camera save the RAW files in DNG instead of the proprietary PEF?

DNG gives full information. I switched to DNG with the K10 IIRC, as Adobe was slow to release support for the PEF. Ive never bothered with that format since. One of the beauties of DNG is that it takes you off the hamster wheel of software upgrades if you so desire.

[HippyHippo]

Ten years in, I’m struggling to see any downside of using DNG.

[StiffLegged]

I set my camera to save raw as DNG years ago and never went back. Nothing’s been lost by doing so, the image quality is unaffected.

[Frater]

Is anything lost at all in the RAW data when you have the camera save the RAW files in DNG instead of the proprietary PEF?

Better check it out. E.g. someone discovered a bug on the Pentax-generated DNG files, for the K20D, where the white balance was wrong, so this information was lost.
see PEF vs. DNG when shooting RAW?: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Better: shoot in PEF and let Adobe's converter do the conversion to DNG. They know the job.

The only downside I could find on the previous posts was that the files in DNG are a bit larger than PEF.

That could be due to DNG having a larger JPEG preview file embedded. Also, the first little thumbnail image in DNGs is always uncompressed, to comply with TIFF/EP standards.

I avoid DNG due to Adobe Lightroom/Photoshop's stupidity. They don't allow saving metadata additions or changes back to a dedicated metadata "sidecar" file (*.xmp). Instead they only can write back to the original DNG files.
With PEF, they don't touch PEFs, and write everything to XMP files. Which is the only acceptable thing for my metadata workflow (and my incremental backup workflow).

[chrism888]

One of the beauties of DNG is that it takes you off the hamster wheel of software upgrades if you so desire.

^ This is the reason why I've been using DNG for at least the last 12 years or so

[Selvadero]

Better check it out. E.g. someone discovered a bug on the Pentax-generated DNG files, for the K20D, where the white balance was wrong, so this information was lost.
see PEF vs. DNG when shooting RAW?: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Better: shoot in PEF and let Adobe's converter do the conversion to DNG. They know the job.


That could be due to DNG having a larger JPEG preview file embedded. Also, the first little thumbnail image in DNGs is always uncompressed, to comply with TIFF/EP standards.

I avoid DNG due to Adobe Lightroom/Photoshop's stupidity. They don't allow saving metadata additions or changes back to a dedicated metadata "sidecar" file (*.xmp). Instead they only can write back to the original DNG files.
With PEF, they don't touch PEFs, and write everything to XMP files. Which is the only acceptable thing for my metadata workflow (and my incremental backup workflow).

Okay, thanks to all for the replies, I think I will stick with DNG unless someone knows of a problem with my model. I am using the K-70. Are there any known issues with Pentax's built-in conversion to DNG in this model? I would rather not be bothered with using the Adobe conversion software.

[Oldbayrunner]

Better check it out. E.g. someone discovered a bug on the Pentax-generated DNG files, for the K20D, where the white balance was wrong, so this information was lost.
see PEF vs. DNG when shooting RAW?: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Better: shoot in PEF and let Adobe's converter do the conversion to DNG. They know the job.

Two things wrong with this; Lol

A. It's from DP review
B. It's from 2008

A lot has changed in the last 12 years with in camera raw conversion to dng. Heck back then if you used the cameras raw format and went outside of the camera mfg. raw conversion software there was some data conversion loss. Today Adobe DNG is pretty much the industry standard and with the advancements in raw conversion software I doubt any difference would be that noticeable. This is why most camera mfg's now include the option to use dng.

Besides it was a pain shooting camera raw, converting it, then having to deal with the sidecar xmp files. Not that you still can't have Adobe include them if using Lightroom or Photoshop.

[acoufap]

Okay, thanks to all for the replies, I think I will stick with DNG unless someone knows of a problem with my model. I am using the K-70. Are there any known issues with Pentax's built-in conversion to DNG in this model? I would rather not be bothered with using the Adobe conversion software.

- I always shoot DNG ... starting with K-5, then K-1 and KP. Never had problems.
- Raw data is the same for PEF and DNG generated by the camera.
- White balance is independent from sensor data used when conversion is done, i.e. applied for the previews and post processing.
- DNG of new cameras will work with different and older Raw Converters, whereas PEF may be not supported.
- The Pentax in-camera DNG format is native Pentax raw format like PEF. Don't compare it with Adobe Converter created DNG. I use Capture One with Pentax in-camera generated DNG. Doesn't show problems IMO.
- To say something about different DNG files: the DNG raw files generated by VueScan when scanning negatives oder slides are different. They contain RGB tiff based data, not non-rgb sensor data like camera raw files.
- If you are an Exiftool user you'll realize that extracting the different JPG preview sizes will partially work different for PEF and DNG. If you're interested in details, have a look here. Although written in German it should be clear what I talk about in this post.

[RGlasel]

Two things wrong with this; Lol

A. It's from DP review
B. It's from 2008

A lot has changed in the last 12 years with in camera raw conversion to dng. Heck back then if you used the cameras raw format and went outside of the camera mfg. raw conversion software there was some data conversion loss. Today Adobe DNG is pretty much the industry standard and with the advancements in raw conversion software I doubt any difference would be that noticeable. This is why most camera mfg's now include the option to use dng.

Besides it was a pain shooting camera raw, converting it, then having to deal with the sidecar xmp files. Not that you still can't have Adobe include them if using Lightroom or Photoshop.

A question for the moderators, can this post (and this thread) be made a sticky?


Choice is good, but if anyone wants to stick with PEG files to be a contrarian, any quirks are theirs to embrace. For someone looking for practical advice in the year 2020 stick with DNG.

[Wheatfield]

Better check it out. E.g. someone discovered a bug on the Pentax-generated DNG files, for the K20D, where the white balance was wrong, so this information was lost.
see PEF vs. DNG when shooting RAW?: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Better: shoot in PEF and let Adobe's converter do the conversion to DNG. They know the job.


That could be due to DNG having a larger JPEG preview file embedded. Also, the first little thumbnail image in DNGs is always uncompressed, to comply with TIFF/EP standards.

I avoid DNG due to Adobe Lightroom/Photoshop's stupidity. They don't allow saving metadata additions or changes back to a dedicated metadata "sidecar" file (*.xmp). Instead they only can write back to the original DNG files.
With PEF, they don't touch PEFs, and write everything to XMP files. Which is the only acceptable thing for my metadata workflow (and my incremental backup workflow).

He had something else going on that caused his problem. I expect he was shooting at too high a shutter speed for fluorescent lights. As soon as he indicated he couldn't get a good white balance I knew he had screwed something up.
Even with the K20, which is what he was discussing in that 12 year old thread, there were no problems with the K20 DNG files that a modicum of user competence couldn't correct.
I never had the problem he described, and never read about anyone else having problems with white balance information getting lost. This is a one off issue affecting one user. That points to user error, not a camera/ software problem.