[GUB]

Good day

I am hoping someone can help me out. I have a Pentax K1 Mii, and am using a 150-450 D FA pentax lens to shoot wildlife photography. I am struggling with noise in my photos. I have tried various adjustments but still getting noise unless I am shooting below ISO 1000. The best time for wildlife photography is around sunrise or sunset. I am finding at this time the camera wants to bump my ISO up over 5000, if not 8000 or still higher yet to shoot at 1/640 shutter speed f5.6, which has too much noise. Ideally I want to shoot at faster shutter speeds to get owls in flight but I cannot, the ISO is so high and images are so grainy even close up. Even during the day in shadows it is wanting to bump up ISO to around 2000. This should be fine but I am seeing a lot of noise. To alleviate my own lack of expertise, I switched from shooting in AV to TV mode, with AutoISO. So I set my shutter speed usually around 1/1000 or 1/800 as animals and birds tend to be moving a lot and birds in flight to at least 1/1600, but either the camera is moving up the ISO to higher ranges or even if it is relatively low there is still a fair amount of noise. Can someone tell me what I am doing wrong? I cleaned the sensor to make sure that was not causing any issues.

Thank you

Hi country cowgirl and welcome. I suggest you sit back and have a think whether that noise you are seeing is actually all that bad. Chances are you are examining it at 100% pixel peeping. The thing is I came from the K01 and its 16mp and I was disappointed that the noise of the K-1 seemed only a little better. That was until it was pointed out to me that for a given final image the pixel size of the FF is far smaller than the apsc and so the noise is far harder to see. So back off the pixel peeping a little and just trust your gear -- it is as good as you are going to get and your basic settings seem to be ball park right. Look for a raw developer with a good denoise app in it. I personally like the profiled denoise in Darktable.

[UncleVanya]

I am hoping someone can help me out. I have a Pentax K1 Mii, and am using a 150-450 D FA pentax lens to shoot wildlife photography. I am struggling with noise in my photos. I have tried various adjustments but still getting noise unless I am shooting below ISO 1000. The best time for wildlife photography is around sunrise or sunset. I am finding at this time the camera wants to bump my ISO up over 5000, if not 8000 or still higher yet to shoot at 1/640 shutter speed f5.6, which has too much noise. Ideally I want to shoot at faster shutter speeds to get owls in flight but I cannot, the ISO is so high and images are so grainy even close up. Even during the day in shadows it is wanting to bump up ISO to around 2000. This should be fine but I am seeing a lot of noise.

Are you shooting in jpg or raw?
If you aren't using raw, I highly recommend it for this. I also suggest getting DXO Photolab - their prime noise reduction is one of the best options available.

Next, are you panning birds in flight, that can lower the shutter speed needed, not always easy I understand.

Finally, some of the shots you see from people are using faster lenses. Some of them get closer using shorter lenses and blinds, some are using very long fast lenses as well. Shooting birds is very hard.

[Smoke665]

Maybe we're the unlucky ones that got the not so good K1MIIs, because two years in I still question if it does as good of job on noise as my K3II, especially at or below ISO 6400.

One thing not mentioned is exposure, are you getting a full data file exposure according to your histogram. In camera noise reduction works to clean the noise in the raw file, but if you under expose then boost in post you're magnifying any noise in the file. The other thing you might try is processing the file first in Pentax DCU5 software, sometimes I've had better success with it.

Moving on to camera settings, in the menu 1 AE metering try the center weighted or spot setting. Menu 2, Dynamic range Settings, Highlight Correction, try auto and Shadow Correction, try setting it to medium. Menu 2, Noise Reduction, you can set High ISO NR to auto, low, medium, or high. Experiment with these to find what works best for you. Again these work on a pixel level to correct the noise before any PP.

[UncleVanya]

Moving on to camera settings, in the menu 1 AE metering try the center weighted or spot setting. Menu 2, Dynamic range Settings, Highlight Correction, try auto and Shadow Correction, try setting it to medium. Menu 2, Noise Reduction, you can set High ISO NR to auto, low, medium, or high. Experiment with these to find what works best for you. Again these work on a pixel level to correct the noise before any PP.

My understanding is that at least some of those settings only apply to the jpg. For example highlight correction simple sets the iso so that you underexpose by a stop (which impacts raw, but not in a way that is necessarily good unless highlights are likely to blow out), shadow correction only applies to the jpg as it is simply processing the file with a curve to lift shadows. The noise reduction settings also only apply to the jpg, but the Pentax dcu software will apply those settings automatically to raw development since it recognises the setting in the exif.

[countrycowgirl]

I assumed you already are post processing to reduce noise. If you need say f5.6 and 1/500+ shutter speed and your camera's auto ISO is jumping too high for acceptable noise, then that is the physical limit.

Thank you, and yes I am post processing to reduce noise but would like to get it lower so as not lose detail in editing

---------- Post added 08-22-20 at 08:13 AM ----------

Hi country cowgirl and welcome. I suggest you sit back and have a think whether that noise you are seeing is actually all that bad. Chances are you are examining it at 100% pixel peeping. The thing is I came from the K01 and its 16mp and I was disappointed that the noise of the K-1 seemed only a little better. That was until it was pointed out to me that for a given final image the pixel size of the FF is far smaller than the apsc and so the noise is far harder to see. So back off the pixel peeping a little and just trust your gear -- it is as good as you are going to get and your basic settings seem to be ball park right. Look for a raw developer with a good denoise app in it. I personally like the profiled denoise in Darktable.

Thank you, and yes I am looking at it 100% pixel, I will keep that in mind

---------- Post added 08-22-20 at 08:14 AM ----------

Noise reduction in post is a requirement for this type of shooting. Shoot in RAW and process the RAW to remove the noise. You have only a certain amount of light and you have some fixed camera settings you need for your subject. That's physics, nothing else you can do.

You have shutter speed, aperture and ISO. Your shutter speed is fixed at 1/640 per your requirement. Your aperture is fixed by the lens, 150-450 is 4.5-5.6 depending on focal length. That leaves ISO and that has to go where it has to go to get a proper exposure. That might mean noise and that means noise reduction in post.

The K-1 is about as good as it gets sensor-wise for noise so your only choices are a faster lens or deal with the noise. You could look into an FA*300 f/2.8 but the cost on that is dear.

Thank you!

---------- Post added 08-22-20 at 08:16 AM ----------

dont know much about "terms" / "words" so if used a wrong word etc do pardon.

i snap birds, wont dare to say am even half good but, you might want to try the way i tried to beat high iso in TAV mode.

1) do ensure the iso settings are in 1/3 stops increment (and also shutter speed). Can go to menu system to do that.

2) use TAV mode. And, set maximum ISO allowed, to either iso1250 or iso1600.
I am VERY sure that at iso1600, the K-1 is more than able to land you the image.

3) when using TAV mode, do also ensure you pick a metering method which you know will land you the image more or less about there.

4) reason why limit iso in TAV mode to max of iso1250 or 1600, is because i have tried before and the K-1 can still pull it off.

You see, i ever experimented.
Using TAV mode, set max allowable iso to 1250.
I choose my shutter speed and aperture and the auto iso kept blinking (meaning, camera is saying, lower shutter speed or open up aperture).

I disregarded the blinking iso and snapped.

Then, i went to the menu system to change it to allowable maximum iso of 12800.

I then tested it.
Using the same previous selected shutter speed and aperture.
Then, the camers selected what it thought should be the ideal iso, and it turned out the camera wants it at iso3200. (Which i ignored earlier and still snap ahead when iso kept blinking at iso1250).

5) anyway, the image came up very dark BUT, more importantly, i could still get back the image the way i wanted it.
(And, mind me, i shot jpegs back then, all i did was increase exposure etc etc on the jpeg itself, the image still came up fine.
So if you shoot RAW, i am sure you can do much much more than is possible with jpegs).

The point is, the K-1 is able to handle intentional underexposure.
I suspect even if the camera had wanted iso4000++ but i went ahead and snap with iso1250 blinking, it will still come out fine

I will try this thank you

---------- Post added 08-22-20 at 08:17 AM ----------

I forgot, the other day I was watching some videos on youtube, this one by Steve Perry, it seems very useful to me and gives you a lot of advice on the techniques of shooting birds in prevalence,

Steve Perry & Birds

Thank you for the link, I will take a look at this video

---------- Post added 08-22-20 at 08:17 AM ----------

I forgot, the other day I was watching some videos on youtube, this one by Steve Perry, it seems very useful to me and gives you a lot of advice on the techniques of shooting birds in prevalence,

Steve Perry & Birds

Thank you for the link, I will take a look at this video

---------- Post added 08-22-20 at 08:20 AM ----------

Most of the owl in flight photos I have seen were taken with the sun up in pretty good light, in fact most seem to be set up. I think the most help you will get will be from yourself, if you know where these owls are pick the best lit spot they can come through. I don't mean to imply anything negative, but if you haven't had the lens long you will get better with it. My biggest lens is the DA* 300 and it took some getting to know it, I've had it for almost seven years and don't always feel that I do it justice. But mostly know the owls and try to get them the earliest in the evening, or latest morning time. I envy you if you know the spots owls regularly fly. To me it's very special and exciting to see owls. I do know a place in Ohio where some Northern Saw Whets spend the Winter, and I have went there a couple of times way before sunup to try to get them on the last hunts to no avail. But even finding them roosting in the trees is cool, they are still awake, and watching you, and pretty tolerant of people.

If you have to shoot really high ISO you are going to get noise in low light, especially if you don't fill the frame, which is hard to do with birds in flight unless you are very lucky or it is set up.

Good luck, I think you get the shots if the birds are a little cooperative.

Thank you, I am fortunate we live on a farm in Northern Alberta with a fair amount of land and there is a great horned owl that I can usually find out hunting early in the morning or later in the evening about 5 minutes from my house.

---------- Post added 08-22-20 at 08:20 AM ----------

Most of the owl in flight photos I have seen were taken with the sun up in pretty good light, in fact most seem to be set up. I think the most help you will get will be from yourself, if you know where these owls are pick the best lit spot they can come through. I don't mean to imply anything negative, but if you haven't had the lens long you will get better with it. My biggest lens is the DA* 300 and it took some getting to know it, I've had it for almost seven years and don't always feel that I do it justice. But mostly know the owls and try to get them the earliest in the evening, or latest morning time. I envy you if you know the spots owls regularly fly. To me it's very special and exciting to see owls. I do know a place in Ohio where some Northern Saw Whets spend the Winter, and I have went there a couple of times way before sunup to try to get them on the last hunts to no avail. But even finding them roosting in the trees is cool, they are still awake, and watching you, and pretty tolerant of people.

If you have to shoot really high ISO you are going to get noise in low light, especially if you don't fill the frame, which is hard to do with birds in flight unless you are very lucky or it is set up.

Good luck, I think you get the shots if the birds are a little cooperative.

Thank you, I am fortunate we live on a farm in Northern Alberta with a fair amount of land and there is a great horned owl that I can usually find out hunting early in the morning or later in the evening about 5 minutes from my house.

---------- Post added 08-22-20 at 08:26 AM ----------

The animals do not pose, you need a lot of persistence, observation and knowledge of the places, without them you can only count on luck.....

Yes, I have lived in the country for all my life and have observed animals for years and further have a background in Biology. It takes a long time to understand their behaviour, gain knowledge of their habitat, understand the time of year that highlights their attributes the best )in terms of getting a beautiful photo that showcases them well and the time of day or night to best view them. I have been studying animals for over 30 years and still have a lot to learn

---------- Post added 08-22-20 at 08:29 AM ----------

The settings you are using aren't extreme and the K1-II should be able to give reasonable results. I did a search on my photos at high iso using that lens and the K1-II. These have default edits from Darktable.

I turn off all in camera processing. I use TAV mode usually, with a user mode set to 1/1250 f8, and adjust from there. Center point focus usually, especially if very dark.

A dark bird against a dark background at distance in low light will be extremely difficult. Lighter colors and backgrounds let you go to higher iso's. I shoot from a tripod with a gimbal, which probably gives me a stop or two. Hand held make sure stabilization is on.

It took me months to start getting results with a long lens in good light, so practice and technique matter. When I got the 150-450 I had trouble getting anything decent for a while, even though I was shooting a 500 f4.5 for a few years previous, but I figured out the lens and am very happy with it. Low light with long lenses shooting wildlife is probably the most challenging thing you can do. In my experience movement blur causes me more trouble than noise.

These are iso 26500. K1-II with 150-450. These aren't exceptional shots, I selected a few examples from my collection. There is lots of improvements that could be made; cropping, exposure correction and some contrast. Many of my lower iso shots have more noise and loss of detail that these high iso shots.









And iso 12800

Thank you! You make me hopefully I can master this and figure it out. I have had this lens for two years now and still have a lot to learn so very much appreciate you sharing your images.

---------- Post added 08-22-20 at 08:30 AM ----------

Just set the maximum ISO at 1600 and bring it back in post. if it is a bit dark initially, it will still look ok after PP.

Thanks I will give it a try

---------- Post added 08-22-20 at 08:35 AM ----------

First of all, welcome to the forums

Also Welcome also to the most frustrating aspect of photography, birds!

There is no ideal ISO for wildlife, trust me, I have tried.

There is nothing wrong with your gear, or your concept in general, shooting wildlife in the real world is hard.

I have shot from the beginning with digital through a multitude of cameras, up to now the K1MKII. It is by far the best camera Pentax has ever made.

But even earlier bodies could produce stunning shots with high ISO

See the K5 shot below at ISO6400




Or this pixel for pixel crop from a K7 at ISO1600
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/attachments/6-pentax-dslr-discussion/413...-reduction.jpg


You have a choice as always low with 3 variables, ISO traded off with noise, aperture and shallow depth of field, or slow shutter speed and shake.

I personally think you are taking the right approach Tav and shutter speed are fine, but I would stop down to f8 to get a few more mm of depth of field.

Let ISO go where it wants. Your biggest issue is you want contrast, to help with sharpness

The other approach, is to use flash and shoot manually, with about -1 to -2 stops under exposure as the base setting and let flash do the rest

Beautiful capture, thanks for sharing! I have never tried flash, not sure it is something I would want to do with animals, afraid it might startle them a lot, but definitely something to consider. Thanks for the uiggestion. I will keep working and seeing what ISO does and what i can do in post production.

---------- Post added 08-22-20 at 08:41 AM ----------

Are you shooting in jpg or raw?
If you aren't using raw, I highly recommend it for this. I also suggest getting DXO Photolab - their prime noise reduction is one of the best options available.

Next, are you panning birds in flight, that can lower the shutter speed needed, not always easy I understand.

Finally, some of the shots you see from people are using faster lenses. Some of them get closer using shorter lenses and blinds, some are using very long fast lenses as well. Shooting birds is very hard.

Hi Thanks for your suggestions

I am shooting RAW and yes super challenging shooting birds. I live in the country and shoot birds that generally are not around people often so are very difficult to get close. I am not always successful getting close and not even worth taking the photo as anything from a distance will not have detail and when cropped looks terrible. I use Topaz Labs DeNoise for post processing. I have been taking wildlife photos for a while I just seem to be struggling getting the quality I want with the K1 but I have only had the camera for two months now so was looking for some pointers on the forum.

Thanks for your suggestions, much appreciated

---------- Post added 08-22-20 at 08:45 AM ----------

Maybe we're the unlucky ones that got the not so good K1MIIs, because two years in I still question if it does as good of job on noise as my K3II, especially at or below ISO 6400.

One thing not mentioned is exposure, are you getting a full data file exposure according to your histogram. In camera noise reduction works to clean the noise in the raw file, but if you under expose then boost in post you're magnifying any noise in the file. The other thing you might try is processing the file first in Pentax DCU5 software, sometimes I've had better success with it.

Moving on to camera settings, in the menu 1 AE metering try the center weighted or spot setting. Menu 2, Dynamic range Settings, Highlight Correction, try auto and Shadow Correction, try setting it to medium. Menu 2, Noise Reduction, you can set High ISO NR to auto, low, medium, or high. Experiment with these to find what works best for you. Again these work on a pixel level to correct the noise before any PP.

Thank you, i feel like you. I had a K3 that handled noise well, but the AF was slow for wildlife at times so after many years I bit the bullet and bought the K1, but like you I have been disappointed. So I turned here thinking maybe I was doing something wrong. I have had pentax cameras for over 35 years and this is the first time I have been frustrated with one. I will take a look at my settings and I appreciate the idea of trying the Pentax software.

Have a great day

---------- Post added 08-22-20 at 08:47 AM ----------

My understanding is that at least some of those settings only apply to the jpg. For example highlight correction simple sets the iso so that you underexpose by a stop (which impacts raw, but not in a way that is necessarily good unless highlights are likely to blow out), shadow correction only applies to the jpg as it is simply processing the file with a curve to lift shadows. The noise reduction settings also only apply to the jpg, but the Pentax dcu software will apply those settings automatically to raw development since it recognises the setting in the exif.

Thank you for clarifying those points. I shot in RAW so I will try the Pentax software, I have not used it before, my workflow is to bring photos into Lightroom where I generally do color balance and some minimal editing and then do any other necessary edits in Photoshop.

Thanks again

[texandrews]

Please share some noisy images with us with full exif data. You have made me curious. If you don't want to share a whole image(I sympathize, which is why I have only posted one in 6 years...), give us a crop. Best would be a raw file somewhere where we could closely examine the file.


You're going to have trouble finding many cameras with better noise characteristics than the K1mkII or original K1. I use mine alongside my 645Z, which has even better characteristics.

Remember that you can shoot your camera underexposed and bring it up in post. The K1mkII's accelerator kicks in at iso 640, I think. That said, I have never seen anything objectionable with shots up to 3200, and 6400 really isn't bad and cleans up nicely. But with Auto ISO remember to set the high limit.


Also remember that your BIF in twilight conditions is a torture test. In your situation, I'd be exploring something like a Topaz de-noise product, but also getting better with LR or PS---and if you already are a whiz at those, then possibly you are just expecting too much.

[pschlute]

Thank you, and yes I am post processing to reduce noise but would like to get it lower so as not lose detail in editing

You sound like you know your way round post processing.

Would it be also worthwhile posting a link to a full size jpeg or better still to a raw file so we can have a go at noise reduction ? For a full size jpeg you will need to link to a hosting site like Flickr and for a raw file you will need to email or link to dropbox or something similar. The forum will downsize any large images so you need to link.

I use the K-1 (mark one) and find it to be extremely low on noise, although I appreciate I am not generally shooting in such challenging conditions as you. Where I do use NR I do it selectively in Photoshop using masks or selective tools so I dont apply NR to critical areas of the subject if it is not needed.

[derekkite]

Don't underestimate the difficulty of what you are trying to accomplish.

The tougher the conditions, the more you want to set your scene. There are backgrounds and distances that simply will not work. You know your area and the scenes you will run into, look at these scenes as framing the birds. The same light, same bird against different scenes will either work or won't; it is a matter of figuring out what works.

And get close. The larger the bird is in the frame, the more detail there will be to work with, especially important when noise will lose some detail.

[jatrax]

I was trying to get a shot of the moon setting over my house last week. As I was standing there with the camera on the tripod an owl flew directly over my head. So close I felt the breeze from its wings. I had no thought of trying for a picture, I just followed its flight in awe. Thinking about it now even if I knew it was coming and I was ready I doubt I would have gotten a shot.

Which is why I shoot landscapes and not BIF. As stated above do not underestimate the difficulty of what you are attempting. To be honest I can think of only one thing harder and that would be trying to shoot swallows in flight. (Don't ask, all I will say is it did not go well.)

[ramseybuckeye]

I was trying to get a shot of the moon setting over my house last week. As I was standing there with the camera on the tripod an owl flew directly over my head. So close I felt the breeze from its wings. I had no thought of trying for a picture, I just followed its flight in awe. Thinking about it now even if I knew it was coming and I was ready I doubt I would have gotten a shot.

Which is why I shoot landscapes and not BIF. As stated above do not underestimate the difficulty of what you are attempting. To be honest I can think of only one thing harder and that would be trying to shoot swallows in flight. (Don't ask, all I will say is it did not go well.)

What do you mean? African or European swallow?

[Apet-Sure]

I have never tried flash, not sure it is something I would want to do with animals, afraid it might startle them a lot

I was also concerned about this when shooting birds at my feeder. Another more experienced PF member told me not to worry about it, it doesn't bother them. Sure enough, with songbirds at least, they didn't flinch at all with a fairly powerful flash. Acted like they didn't even notice it. Owls might be different because of their low-light vision. Could you set up a remotely triggered flash near a regular perch or flight path? Your 'shutter speed' will be the duration of the flash, which can be very short indeed.

I am fortunate we live on a farm in Northern Alberta

At those latitudes you're used to being in the dark for a few months out of the year, right?

[jatrax]

What do you mean? African or European swallow?

It reminded me of a quote from Top Gun: "I said to Hollywood, "Where'd he go?" Hollywood says, "Where'd who go?""

[UncleVanya]

Summary for those keeping score:

OP is shooting in RAW and using Topaz denoise software.
OP is getting ISO pushed to 5000 to 8000 with his desired shutter speed and aperture using the DFA 150-450.
OP is looking for ideas, things proposed have included getting closer (always a challenge) to use a faster lens, using a flash perhaps remotely triggered in a flight path that is commonly used, etc.
It has also been suggested that the OP post a couple of files and links to RAW files and full EXIF to help people see the noise problems he is seeing to verify these are in line with expectations.

In short - he seems pretty aware of what he's doing just a bit less familiar with the K1 than he likes and he is not happy with the level of noise at the current settings. ISO 5000-8000 is pretty challenging but for his shots he isn't happy with lower shutter speeds which would permit lower ISO.

I'm stumped - other than faster long lenses (400 f2.8, 600 f4) there's not much I can imagine that will help. Maybe the EXIF if samples are posted will help point people to some solutions.

[Alex645]

I am struggling with noise in my photos. I have tried various adjustments but still getting noise unless I am shooting below ISO 1000. Can someone tell me what I am doing wrong?

You're not doing anything wrong, but there may be some solutions to help reduce noise in your situation:

a) Your DFA 150-450mm f/4.5-5.6 is not the fastest of lenses. The Pentax DFA 70-200mm f/2.8 will allow you to shoot 2 EV faster or you can quarter the ISO from what you were doing before (ISO 1000 instead of ISO 4000). In crop mode, that would give you approximately the equivalent of 350mm.

b) If you really need reach, then why not the Pentax DA 300mm f/4. In crop mode you'll have a 450mm equivalent FOV and gain 1 EV or cut your ISO in half.
Pentax SMCP-DA* 300mm f/4 ED (IF) SDM Autofocus Lens 21760 B&H

c) What is your PP noise reduction process technique shooting RAW? It's possible you are including a step that is increasing the noise. If you could post an unprocessed RAW example (with EXIF info) and an example of that image edited that has unacceptable noise, that would help us understand your tolerance and expectations.
12 Best Noise Reduction Software in 2020

d) I almost always shoot RAW, but there have been high ISO situations where I found the camera's jpeg was able to reduce noise better than I could with a RAW image. Go through your menu and tweak it for high ISO noise reduction, and then next time shoot both RAW + jpeg and see how they compare.

[GUB]

Good day

I am hoping someone can help me out. I have a Pentax K1 Mii, and am using a 150-450 D FA pentax lens to shoot wildlife photography. I am struggling with noise in my photos. I have tried various adjustments but still getting noise unless I am shooting below ISO 1000. The best time for wildlife photography is around sunrise or sunset. I am finding at this time the camera wants to bump my ISO up over 5000, if not 8000 or still higher yet to shoot at 1/640 shutter speed f5.6, which has too much noise. Ideally I want to shoot at faster shutter speeds to get owls in flight but I cannot, the ISO is so high and images are so grainy even close up. Even during the day in shadows it is wanting to bump up ISO to around 2000. This should be fine but I am seeing a lot of noise. To alleviate my own lack of expertise, I switched from shooting in AV to TV mode, with AutoISO. So I set my shutter speed usually around 1/1000 or 1/800 as animals and birds tend to be moving a lot and birds in flight to at least 1/1600, but either the camera is moving up the ISO to higher ranges or even if it is relatively low there is still a fair amount of noise. Can someone tell me what I am doing wrong? I cleaned the sensor to make sure that was not causing any issues.

Thank you

Hang on a minute -- I entered 1/640 f5.6 Iso8000 into a EV calculator and it came out at 8 EV. That is "night street scenes" scenario. Are you sure your lens isn't jammed 3 or 4 stops closed?