6x7 shutter count problem

Dionysus · 10-11-2020, 11:25 AM

Hello everyone!
I recently purchased a 6x7 and am having an issue with the shutter count. After I load the film and advance it, the shutter count stays on the first of 3 dots before the shutter count 1. I can feel the film advancing when I cock it, but the counter still stays in place. Is this an issue with me or the camera??
Thanks in advance!

Silent Street · 10-11-2020, 04:06 PM

Is the film loaded correctly?
If this is your first time with this camera, have you aligned the leader of the film with the start pointer on the film rail inside the camera? Once the leader is engaged into the spool, wind-on until the START line comes into view and align it with the corresponding 120 or 220 mark on the film rail. Close the back and wind-on until 1 appears and the shutter is cocked. The winding process will become progressively more taut during the initial winding phase.

Dionysus · 10-11-2020, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by Silent Street

Is the film loaded correctly?
If this is your first time with this camera, have you aligned the leader of the film with the start pointer on the film rail inside the camera? Once the leader is engaged into the spool, wind-on until the START line comes into view and align it with the corresponding 120 or 220 mark on the film rail. Close the back and wind-on until 1 appears and the shutter is cocked. The winding process will become progressively more taut during the initial winding phase.

Thank you for the reply!
Yes I believe the film is loaded correctly, watched a couple YouTube videos to confirm. I align the start line with the 120 mark and shut the back. Its at this point that I believe something is going wrong. When I wind the camera the counter will not move from the first dot, but I can hear/feel the film being advanced. It just never hits that point of taughtness

Silent Street · 10-12-2020, 03:17 PM

Having established that the film was loaded correctly, then another problem that is worth looking at is a slipped winding pawl in the mechanism that does not engage with the ratchet spindle. With the older Pentax 6x7 cameras (coming out of 1969), faults with the winding mechanism are well documented and unfortunately quite common, related to repeated heavy professional use (studio, chiefly) that weakens the components and can lead to either freewheeling of the wind-on lever or failure to engage at some point, much like what you are experiencing now.

If you purchased the camera online, do you have recourse to being able to return the camera on the assumption that it is likely to have been faulty when you received it? Same again for a brick-and-mortar store. Repair of the winding mechanism is not user-serviceable unless you are handy with miniscule screws and springs that pop out the moment the caps are taken off! These big old cameras can be repaired at pentaxs.com; email Eric there for an assessment before the expense of sending the camera to him (assuming you are in the US; outside of the US he may not recommend the camera being sent over, but it's worth asking).

Silent Street · 10-14-2020, 03:36 PM

MODS please move this thread to the Pentax Medium Format so it can be found for further discourse as necessary.

MarkJerling · 10-15-2020, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by Silent Street

MODS please move this thread to the Pentax Medium Format so it can be found for further discourse as necessary.

Done!

Finn Lyle · 10-22-2020, 09:42 AM

This sounds like either the winding pawl or the shutter mechanism engaging clutch are broken. Both these issues are exceedingly common especially in non-MLU 6x7s and early MLU units. If it is non-MLU there's a whole suit of issues unique to the counter roller (the small cylinder directly right of the shutter) and the counting mechanism which unfortunately Eric cannot repair, at least as of august this year. Oh, and does the shutter cock so you can shoot after winding the film 3 times or does it just advance the film indefinitely?

Silent Street · 10-22-2020, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by Finn Lyle

Both these issues are exceedingly common especially in non-MLU 6x7s and early MLU units.

True. But slipped, stripped or broken film advance pawls have been found in later Pentax 67 cameras from the 1989 release onward. Problems have also been reported (Australia, UK, ,Japan) in repairing these mechanisms using parts from earlier cameras or a mix of both earlier and later mechanics — not ideal and definitely not a precise workaround. Unfortunately there isn't a wide choice available other than scavenging from the same cameras, but anecdotally it's a Heinz variety of parts as a stop-gap measure that will only introduce persistent unreliability going forward.

Dionysus · 10-22-2020, 08:02 PM

Okay guys,
So I returned the camera to the seller on ebay and ordered another. It arrived today and does THE SAME THING 😂
The shutter does not cock, it just advanced the film and does not count frames. Beginning to think maybe my adventure into medium format is a cursed endeavor 😂

Not a Number · 10-22-2020, 08:06 PM

Did you check the serial numbers to see that it is not the same camera?

Finn Lyle · 10-22-2020, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by Silent Street

True. But slipped, stripped or broken film advance pawls have been found in later Pentax 67 cameras from the 1989 release onward. .... Unfortunately there isn't a wide choice available other than scavenging from the same cameras, but anecdotally it's a Heinz variety of parts as a stop-gap measure that will only introduce persistent unreliability going forward.

Good to know. Figured it would be found at some degree in any p67 variety by now, given the combined age and heavy usage most of these cameras have endured. Has it been documented in the 67ii yet? Fingers crossed...

A problem that keeps me awake at night indeed. For both my aging 6x7 and LX, lack of reliable parts is going to be the death of these cameras by golly. I suppose, at least for the short term having dubiously functional machines is better than confidently nonfunctional machines. That's my thoughts anyway.

Dionysus · 10-23-2020, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by Not a Number

Did you check the serial numbers to see that it is not the same camera?

Yes, it was purchased before I had sent the other back. But it has the precise same issue, so frustrating. "Tested with film" my arse 😂

Snakehn · 08-22-2021, 09:07 PM

Did you get this fixed? Or returned the second one also?

riffraffselbow · 08-24-2021, 08:30 AM

to be clear, you're not talking about the non-shutter-cocking film advance which takes 3 or 4 winds to pull the leader onto the spool and bring the film into the frame, right? your 4th or 5th wind should have more resistance, lock your advance lever, and set your counter to 1. This is intended behavior.

Snakehn · 08-24-2021, 10:33 AM

Mine is not doing anything, you can freely wind the lever until the film is fully transferred to the right, the counter never moves

10-11-2020, 11:25 AM	#1
Dionysus New Member Join Date: Oct 2020 Posts: 4	6x7 shutter count problem Hello everyone! I recently purchased a 6x7 and am having an issue with the shutter count. After I load the film and advance it, the shutter count stays on the first of 3 dots before the shutter count 1. I can feel the film advancing when I cock it, but the counter still stays in place. Is this an issue with me or the camera?? Thanks in advance!

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10-11-2020, 04:06 PM	#2
Silent Street Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Castlemaine, Victoria, AUS Photos: Albums Posts: 1,151	Is the film loaded correctly? If this is your first time with this camera, have you aligned the leader of the film with the start pointer on the film rail inside the camera? Once the leader is engaged into the spool, wind-on until the START line comes into view and align it with the corresponding 120 or 220 mark on the film rail. Close the back and wind-on until 1 appears and the shutter is cocked. The winding process will become progressively more taut during the initial winding phase.

10-11-2020, 09:56 PM	#3
Dionysus New Member Join Date: Oct 2020 Posts: 4 Original Poster	Originally posted by Silent Street Is the film loaded correctly? If this is your first time with this camera, have you aligned the leader of the film with the start pointer on the film rail inside the camera? Once the leader is engaged into the spool, wind-on until the START line comes into view and align it with the corresponding 120 or 220 mark on the film rail. Close the back and wind-on until 1 appears and the shutter is cocked. The winding process will become progressively more taut during the initial winding phase. Thank you for the reply! Yes I believe the film is loaded correctly, watched a couple YouTube videos to confirm. I align the start line with the 120 mark and shut the back. Its at this point that I believe something is going wrong. When I wind the camera the counter will not move from the first dot, but I can hear/feel the film being advanced. It just never hits that point of taughtness

10-12-2020, 03:17 PM	#4
Silent Street Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Castlemaine, Victoria, AUS Photos: Albums Posts: 1,151	Having established that the film was loaded correctly, then another problem that is worth looking at is a slipped winding pawl in the mechanism that does not engage with the ratchet spindle. With the older Pentax 6x7 cameras (coming out of 1969), faults with the winding mechanism are well documented and unfortunately quite common, related to repeated heavy professional use (studio, chiefly) that weakens the components and can lead to either freewheeling of the wind-on lever or failure to engage at some point, much like what you are experiencing now. If you purchased the camera online, do you have recourse to being able to return the camera on the assumption that it is likely to have been faulty when you received it? Same again for a brick-and-mortar store. Repair of the winding mechanism is not user-serviceable unless you are handy with miniscule screws and springs that pop out the moment the caps are taken off! These big old cameras can be repaired at pentaxs.com; email Eric there for an assessment before the expense of sending the camera to him (assuming you are in the US; outside of the US he may not recommend the camera being sent over, but it's worth asking).

10-14-2020, 03:36 PM	#5
Silent Street Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Castlemaine, Victoria, AUS Photos: Albums Posts: 1,151	MODS please move this thread to the Pentax Medium Format so it can be found for further discourse as necessary.

10-15-2020, 02:56 PM	#6
MarkJerling Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: May 2012 Location: Wairarapa, New Zealand Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 20,421	Originally posted by Silent Street MODS please move this thread to the Pentax Medium Format so it can be found for further discourse as necessary. Done!

10-22-2020, 09:42 AM	#7
Finn Lyle Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 33	This sounds like either the winding pawl or the shutter mechanism engaging clutch are broken. Both these issues are exceedingly common especially in non-MLU 6x7s and early MLU units. If it is non-MLU there's a whole suit of issues unique to the counter roller (the small cylinder directly right of the shutter) and the counting mechanism which unfortunately Eric cannot repair, at least as of august this year. Oh, and does the shutter cock so you can shoot after winding the film 3 times or does it just advance the film indefinitely?

10-22-2020, 06:53 PM	#8
Silent Street Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Castlemaine, Victoria, AUS Photos: Albums Posts: 1,151	Originally posted by Finn Lyle Both these issues are exceedingly common especially in non-MLU 6x7s and early MLU units. True. But slipped, stripped or broken film advance pawls have been found in later Pentax 67 cameras from the 1989 release onward. Problems have also been reported (Australia, UK, ,Japan) in repairing these mechanisms using parts from earlier cameras or a mix of both earlier and later mechanics — not ideal and definitely not a precise workaround. Unfortunately there isn't a wide choice available other than scavenging from the same cameras, but anecdotally it's a Heinz variety of parts as a stop-gap measure that will only introduce persistent unreliability going forward.

10-22-2020, 08:02 PM	#9
Dionysus New Member Join Date: Oct 2020 Posts: 4 Original Poster	Okay guys, So I returned the camera to the seller on ebay and ordered another. It arrived today and does THE SAME THING 😂 The shutter does not cock, it just advanced the film and does not count frames. Beginning to think maybe my adventure into medium format is a cursed endeavor 😂

10-22-2020, 08:06 PM	#10
Not a Number Moderator Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Venice, CA Posts: 10,526	Did you check the serial numbers to see that it is not the same camera?

10-22-2020, 09:08 PM	#11
Finn Lyle Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 33	Originally posted by Silent Street True. But slipped, stripped or broken film advance pawls have been found in later Pentax 67 cameras from the 1989 release onward. .... Unfortunately there isn't a wide choice available other than scavenging from the same cameras, but anecdotally it's a Heinz variety of parts as a stop-gap measure that will only introduce persistent unreliability going forward. Good to know. Figured it would be found at some degree in any p67 variety by now, given the combined age and heavy usage most of these cameras have endured. Has it been documented in the 67ii yet? Fingers crossed... A problem that keeps me awake at night indeed. For both my aging 6x7 and LX, lack of reliable parts is going to be the death of these cameras by golly. I suppose, at least for the short term having dubiously functional machines is better than confidently nonfunctional machines. That's my thoughts anyway.

10-23-2020, 06:27 PM	#12
Dionysus New Member Join Date: Oct 2020 Posts: 4 Original Poster	Originally posted by Not a Number Did you check the serial numbers to see that it is not the same camera? Yes, it was purchased before I had sent the other back. But it has the precise same issue, so frustrating. "Tested with film" my arse 😂

08-22-2021, 09:07 PM	#13
Snakehn New Member Join Date: Aug 2021 Posts: 4	Did you get this fixed? Or returned the second one also?

08-24-2021, 08:30 AM	#14
riffraffselbow Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Photos: Gallery Posts: 41	to be clear, you're not talking about the non-shutter-cocking film advance which takes 3 or 4 winds to pull the leader onto the spool and bring the film into the frame, right? your 4th or 5th wind should have more resistance, lock your advance lever, and set your counter to 1. This is intended behavior.

08-24-2021, 10:33 AM	#15
Snakehn New Member Join Date: Aug 2021 Posts: 4	Mine is not doing anything, you can freely wind the lever until the film is fully transferred to the right, the counter never moves