[CatJo]

Hi all, new to this forum and film photography (though comfortable with Digital SLR's, E-TTL etc). Have just bought an ME Super that came with a Vivitar 202 flash and trying to figure out just how one should use a combo like this (the Vivitar 202 has an auto mode with a sensor on the front).

So say shooting with ASA 400 film, just set the flash to Auto and lens at f11, camera shutter at 1/125 (or slower) and shoot away, and subjects within 10 feet will be properly exposed? That's what the dial on the back of the camera says. What if I want to shoot at f5.6 instead, say? What about fill-flash?

How about indoor ambient light flash photography? I'd like to drag the shutter, so if I want to make an exposure at say 1/30 at f2 which may underexpose the background by about 3 stops. How do I get the flash to properly expose the subject at this f2?

Hope there's a simple light-bulb moment that clears this all up, appreciate any guidance!

[laith]

The shutter of the camera has no effect (but should be not more than 125 in ME Super) because this is related to the speed of the flash flash, which is much faster, so it can be controlled through the aperture and the sensitivity of the film. Thus you have to manually controll your flash according to its guide number by fixing shutter to 125, and iso of the film and controll your aperture only depending on the guide number and the distance.

[CatJo]

The Guide Number of this flash is 60, it wants f11 with ASA 400 to properly expose subjects within 10 feet. Does the flash just fire at full power in manual mode, how do I use say f4 instead and have the flash not just overpower the subject?

[MikeMcE]

For fill flash, a manual /proper exposure of the background is the start then add some light . With a basic flash as that, you might need to addd tissue in front of the flash to cut its output

You can make the entire shot with the flash, but it’s probably going to overpower it


Hang up and DRIVE!

[TwoUptons]

The Vivitar 202 is not dedicated, which is probably what you want for this...

If you are within the 11 foot auto capability of the flash, go ahead and let the camera meter the ambient light, but underexpose by the 2-3 stops you want.
You can do two stops IIRC with the exposure compensation but would need to go manual for 3. Use f11. The camera will pick a shutter speed well below 1/125 if you're inside.
When you fire the camera with the flash attached, the flash should fire, even if the shutter speed is much lower. That's fine...
The result should be an ambient light background underexposed however much you wanted with the foreground illuminated properly with the flash.

If you main subject is outside the effective auto range, you'll have to do it manually.
Figure out the distance to your main subject, and get the correct aperture from the circular slide-rule thing on the flash. Set the camera to that aperture and repeat the above.
The camera should again get the background right while the flash should get the main subject right (if you guessed the distance correctly).

Does that help?

-Eric

[CatJo]

Thank you for the reply. I guess the part I don't understand is how the flash would really work if I don't want to shoot at that f11 at ASA 400, for a subject within the 11 foot capability of the flash. If I want f4 for instance, how does the flash know to provide adequate output without over-exposing the subject? That sensor on the front of the flash doesn't know what my aperture is actually set at.

I can control the ambient light with a combination of the aperture and shutter (as long as I keep it slower than 1/125 flash sync speed), but I'm having a tough time with how the flash can magically give me less output if I need it. With a dedicated flash (AF160 OR AF200S for the ME Super), it would be even worse as those flashes automatically set the camera shutter to 1/125 I believe, and they don't know the aperture setting either.

Hope I explained the source of my confusion? Appreciate trying to straighten me out!

[mikesbike]

(AF160 OR AF200S for the ME Super

I don't know about your Vivitar flash- it might work the same way if setting shutter speed at 125/sec. but with these Pentax flash units, as well as several others of this era, they have their own meter for flash output. Then, all you have to know is the distance range for a set aperture and which ISO (ASA), as shown either on a graph on the back of the flash unit, or in the unit's little handbook. If you are within those distances, the metering sensor on the front of the flash unit will regulate output for good exposure. Some of those flash units have a +/- flash compensation control as we'll, but I don't think the AF 160 does.

You can even shoot in M mode for a low light shot, metering for ambient lighting without the flash, which would mean a slower shutter speed, and the Flash units meter will work for fill.

I just found my little handbook for the very compact AF 160 flash, and by golly it does show a graphic scale on the rear of the flash unit for distances, etc. My favorite flash unit from that era is the AF 280T which is still quite compact, but features a tilt/swivel head for bounce, and even a downward tilt for close work.

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Last edited by mikesbike; 12-26-2020 at 05:38 PM.

[CatJo]

Then, all you have to know is the distance range for a set aperture and which ISO (ASA), as shown either on a graph on the back of the flash unit, or in the unit's little handbook. If you are within those distances, the metering sensor on the front of the flash unit will regulate output for good exposure.

See that's my confusion I think - how does the flash know my aperture is set to f4 instead of f11, how can the sensor on the front of the flash know when "enough" light is received back from the subject to ensure an adequate exposure?

[TwoUptons]

The short answer is that the flash knows nothing about what you've set, so you have to adjust to what it wants (or fool it).

In auto mode, the flash expects a certain amount of light. That amount of light doesn't actually change with your film speed setting -- you just compensate for higher film speeds with a smaller aperture.

In manual mode, you get one set power output. You can control the exposure on your subject with film speed, aperture, and distance.
Shutter speed here only controls the amount of ambient light that you see in the final photo (since the flash fires so fast).
If you use the little slide rule thing on the flash, and it tells you f11, you need to use f11, move back from your subject to use a wider aperture, or use slower film to use a wider aperture.

An alternative, as mentioned above, is to block the flash with something, though that will likely mean some experimentation (maybe on digital first...)

-Eric

[CatJo]

This makes more sense, there's no way to reduce the power output of the flash in manual mode. All the scale on the flash is telling me is what aperture I need to get a "proper" exposure of a subject within a specific distance at a specific film speed. If I deviate from that aperture, I will not get the results I desire. IOW, I can't really use it as fill-flash.

[mikesbike]

See that's my confusion I think - how does the flash know my aperture is set to f4 instead of f11, how can the sensor on the front of the flash know when "enough" light is received back from the subject to ensure an adequate exposure?

The flash's metering sensor does have a purpose- to read incoming light and cut output. If it had no purpose, there would be no sensor. Of course the flash unit has to be set to auto mode. But you have to be within the distance given for the set of aperture & ASA you are using, or rather set your aperture according to that graph, which includes the ASA of the film you are using. It seems to do a decent job, in my experience.

Some film cameras have an auto flash metering system built within the camera referred to as TTL, reading of the light as it comes through the lens, which represented an improvement in accuracy, better at taking into account ambient lighting. Then, eventually, the next in-camera such system supposedly yet more accurate, is the still-current P-TTL, which, fast as lightning, has the flash unit emit a test flash when you press the shutter button, to read before the shutter actually is fired with the actual flash for the shot.

You can often get a good idea of the distance you are shooting from by focusing, then check the distance reading on your lens, and then set your aperture according to the graph on the rear of the flash unit.

[MikeMcE]

You can also “fool” the flash.

ND gel squares taped in front of the sensor. I used to have a large gel set and holder for my 6x7, trimmed an edge of the 1/2 stop ND, great supply back in the day. I’ve forgotten many of the old tricks and solutions.


Hang up and DRIVE!

[tibbitts]

This makes more sense, there's no way to reduce the power output of the flash in manual mode. All the scale on the flash is telling me is what aperture I need to get a "proper" exposure of a subject within a specific distance at a specific film speed. If I deviate from that aperture, I will not get the results I desire. IOW, I can't really use it as fill-flash.

Well, if I recall that flash is similar to what pretty much everyone used for fill flash at that time. My first electronic flash was the Vivitar 251, and later I had the ubiquitous 283. Ultimately fill flash didn't work that well, especially if you didn't use extremely low-speed film and/or one of the high-end bodies that could do slightly faster sync. Some mid-level and above flash units had vari-power capability but that was with manual mode, and you had to do some calculations to get the flash underexposure that you usually wanted.

[Lowell Goudge]

Check this link for the manual

Specifications - Vivitar 202 Owner's Manual [Page 7] | ManualsLib

To use the flash, in auto mode, you set the film speed on the calculator dial, and for full flash set the aperture to match where the blue aperture mark lines up. This will give auto flash control with the sensor up to the guide number in feet or meters for that lens setting,

If you want to shoot in manual at other apertures, you need to do the calculations yourself for distance and aperture. Also note that the flash does not consider really ambient light contribution, so if you want to do fill flash, what I recommend is to set the camera at or below sync speed to be about 1/2 to 1 stop under exposure, and with your film speed , aperture and distance, work out a flash setting (full 1/2 1/4 power etc) to give the amount of fill you want

[TwoUptons]

This makes more sense, there's no way to reduce the power output of the flash in manual mode. All the scale on the flash is telling me is what aperture I need to get a "proper" exposure of a subject within a specific distance at a specific film speed. If I deviate from that aperture, I will not get the results I desire. IOW, I can't really use it as fill-flash.

That's the short answer, yes.

You can partially block the flash, and with some experimentation, that will work. Diffusers will block and diffuse the light, which may be a win/win...

But I'd suggest a more sophisticated flash. I used to have a Sunpak 544 "potato masher" flash that went down to 1/128th of its full power with a dial on the side. It was great for fill, and it had tons of power.
I think the Vivitar 283 goes down to 1/8, and there are a billion "no-name" flashes out there with that capability, nearly all of which will work fine on a MESuper.
And Mike mentioned the Pentax AF280. It's just a fantastic flash at all levels, but it still wants f8 in its "low auto" setting.

An AF280 and a Super Program will TTL, letting you do all of this much more easily...

-Eric