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01-02-2021, 06:15 AM   #1
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Does wind chill mean anything to a Pentax? (KP example)

Was out yesterday for over 2 hours going several km's back on the East Coast Trail south of Cape Spear. Later afternoon.

Temps were dropping from -3C --> -5C (26--> 23F F), winds 60 kph (40 mph), very steady, and 100% humidity (making the wind very 'heavy' and very penetrating if not properly dressed). Environmental lighting and precip conditions HIGHLY variable as microfront snow squalls were moving through every half hour or so and then the sun would break out--all of which of course was the reason I was out. (yeah, a bit stupid to start out just 2.5 hours before dark, given the conditions, but the lighting was very interesting and there actually were a goodly number of hikers for potential help out along the trail...Newfoundlanders are inured to such conditions--it's normal weather, not "bad" weather this time of year).

Used a constant f10 setting with a 16-85 mounted on a KP. System then took the camera from 1/15 sec exposures down to 1/3200 exposures (Hyper P mode) as the microfronts would hit then pass. Was trying for panos but haven't processed them yet. Have great hopes of having caught some great light and landscape/atmospheric conditions of interest. Will process today (both Hugein and Silkypix 10 Pro have satisfactory to me stitching algorithms).

Anyway, to the point: I was on a coastal and completely open bog/low thicket/tundra portion of the trail which runs straight N and S along a the top of a 40-80 meter cliff over the ocean. The wind was maybe a couple of points south of west--landward side--so the camera (I use a wrist strap under these sorts of easy, open, non-snagging trail conditions) was constantly dangling in my right hand on the windward side on the southerly trek out (3.5K) and on the leeward side of my body on the northerly way back. What I noticed was that when carried on the windward side (out bound trek), the battery acted like it was many degrees colder with some power glitches. When carrried on the leeward side (return trek) I had none. This even given that my turnaround point--North Head Overlook--was about an hour out and the "nicer" leeward conditions were "felt" by the KP only after the outbound portion was over (actual temps were slowly dropping). To be honest, I haven't noticed this before when out in these kind of conditions, but most times have never been on such a straight-line and totally open-to-the-wind trail in conditions where you MIGHT notice such a thing. Usually pick deep woods trails for such days for my own comfort!

My question: Does "wind chill" and/or possibly humidity issues as well actually MEAN anything to a KP and it's battery (or any other Pentax or DSLR cameras)? I honestly cannot think of a time I've ever seen this before, but then not sure I've ever had such a pure "natural experiment" setup at exactly the most indicative temps. BTW, I did have more batteries in a pocket but didn't bother as -3C to -5C range is usually fine. For example, I shot in the same location (Cape Spear, Newfoundland) once--had a K-50 then--in -10C with horizontal snow and spume from 20' waves in a 100 kph nor'easter, but was only able to do so for less than an hour--partly camera and partly my Sigma lenses of that day, but mostly ME!--and I never even considered going back country down the coast like yesterday and so stayed near the light house constantly changing directions. -10C (14F) when there is a clear, bone-dry, quiet polar high has never presented any great issues with any of the Pentax DSLR bodies I've owned over the years (K-50/K-70/KP).

Would a good holster system to keep the camera out of the wind and maybe even under an outer layer or two when not in use be a good idea? I've been considering one for rougher trails--not hard to find here!--in any case. (I don't really want to carry a battery grip on longer hikes. Weight is an issue after 4 or 5 K.)


Last edited by jgnfld; 01-02-2021 at 07:21 AM.
01-02-2021, 06:21 AM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by jgnfld Quote
Was out yesterday for over 2 hours going several km's back on the East Coast Trail south of Cape Spear. Later afternoon (yeah, a bit stupid, but the lighting was very interesting). Temps dropping from -3C --> .5C, winds 60 kph and very steady, 100% humidity (making the wind very 'heavy' and very penetrating if not properly dressed), conditions HIGHLY variable as microfront snow squalls were moving through every half hour or so and then the sun would break out with a constant f10 setting on a 16-85, the KP went from 1/15 sec exposures down to 1/3200 exposures (Hyper P mode). Was trying for panos but haven't processed them yet. Have great hopes of having caught some great light and landscape/atmospheric conditions of interest. Will process today (both Hugein and Silkypix 10 Pro have satisfactory to me stitching algorithms).



Anyway, to the point: I was on a coastal and completely open bog/low thicket/tundra portion of the trail which runs straight N and S with the wind maybe a couple of points south of west so the camera (I use a wrist strap under these sorts of easy, open, non-snagging trail conditions) was constantly on the windward side on the trek out (3.5K) and on the leeward side of my body on the way back. What I noticed was that when carried on the windward side, battery seemed to be a couple of degrees colder and that caused some power glitches when carrried on the leeward side but none really when returning. This even given that my turnaround point was about an hour out and the "nicer" leeward conditions were "felt" by the KP only after the windward period (actual temps were slowly dropping) was over. To be honest, I haven't noticed this before when out in these kind of conditions, but most times have never been on such a straight-line and totally open-to-the-wind trail where you MIGHT notice such a thing.



My question: Does "wind chill" and/or possibly humidity issues as well actually MEAN anything to a KP and it's battery (or other Pentax or DSLR cameras)? I honestly cannot think I've ever seen this before, but then as I said, not sure I've ever had such a pure "experimental" setup at exactly the most indicative temps. BTW, I did have more batteries in a pocket but didn't bother as -3 C to -5 C range is usually fine. For example, I shot in the same location (Cape Spear, Newfoundland) once--had a K-50 then--in -10C with horizontal snow and spume from the waves in a 100 kph nor'easter, but was only able to do so for less than an hour--partly camera and partly my Sigma lenses of that day, but mostly ME!--and I never even considered going back country down the coast like yesterday and so stayed near the light house. -10C when there is a polar high with it's far sunnier, far quieter, and far less humid environmental conditions has never presented any great issues with any of the Pentax DSLR bodies I've owned over the years (K-50/K-70/KP).



Would a good holster system to keep the camera out of the wind and maybe even under an outer layer or two when not in use help? I've been considering one for rougher trails--not hard to find here!--in any case.
I suppose anything that generates heat so is at a higher temperature than ambient can be affected by wind chill. Think of a heatsink with a fan.

01-02-2021, 06:21 AM - 2 Likes   #3
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Wind does nothing but as I have noted before many times, the standard KP battery is your enemy in the cold. Get the grip and D-LI90 (original) to solve all power glitches in the cold.
01-02-2021, 07:00 AM - 1 Like   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by slartibartfast01 Quote
I suppose anything that generates heat so is at a higher temperature than ambient can be affected by wind chill. Think of a heatsink with a fan.
does a camera generate heat ?

significant enough to warm the air around it ?

QuoteQuote:
Wind Chill is the temperature it “feels like” outside and is based on the rate of heat loss from exposed skin caused by the effects of wind and cold. As the wind increases, the body is cooled at a faster rate causing the skin temperature to drop.
wind chill effect - Bing

QuoteQuote:
What is wind chill?
Wind chill describes how cold the air feels against your skin, not the actual air temperature. Our bodies radiate heat out at all times, which is why we wear layers to trap our body heat in the cold. Without any layers to trap that heat, it radiates into the surrounding air. However, if the air is calm, that heat will hang out near your body, creating a thin, warm insulating layer near your skin.

When the wind begins to blow, it immediately draws that thin warm layer of air away–just like when you blow on hot soup to cool it down. Your body cools off more quickly, and in response, it generates more heat to stay warm. This process—your body working more to create heat, only to have that heat immediately blown away by the wind—will act to lower your skin and body temperature, and the air ‘feels’ colder.
How does wind chill actually work? – Space City Weather.


Last edited by aslyfox; 01-02-2021 at 07:07 AM.
01-02-2021, 07:03 AM   #5
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Wind chill is meant to represent what exposed skin would experience, how fast would a person get cold in that temperature and wind. So I doubt wind chill has anything to do with it, the camera just gets colder a bit faster but it'd freeze anyway eventually (unlike us, hopefully ).

About your harness question, I use a Peak Design Capture clip on all my winter hikes, I find it very convenient to have the camera ready on the backpack strap, especially with a heavy backpack with winter gear that's harder to remove and rummage through. I've been in -20c weather with a k3ii, as long as I keep snow out of the clip it all is well. Unlike when using a strap, the clip keeps the camera fixed and away from interfering with hiking.
01-02-2021, 07:06 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by aslyfox Quote
It does if it is on, and the battery definitely warms up with use.

01-02-2021, 07:10 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by slartibartfast01 Quote
It does if it is on, and the battery definitely warms up with use.
hmm - - I haven't noticed that on any camera I have used

QuoteOriginally posted by aaacb Quote
Wind chill is meant to represent what exposed skin would experience, how fast would a person get cold in that temperature and wind. . . .
I agree 100 %

01-02-2021, 07:16 AM   #8
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Does wind chill mean anything to a Pentax? (KP example)

Yes heat is the end product of an electrical circuit. I seriously doubt if it can even be measured in a low powered camera. Resistance creates it.
Continuing use with a high drain, yes the battery could get warm. I see this all the time in my high powered RC trucks, (motor drain) but never in cameras.

Hang up and DRIVE!
01-02-2021, 07:22 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by MikeMcE Quote
Yes heat is the end product of an electrical circuit. I seriously doubt if it can even be measured in a low powered camera. Resistance creates it.
Continuing use with a high drain, yes the battery could get warm. I see this all the time in my high powered RC trucks, (motor drain) but never in cameras.

Hang up and DRIVE!
I agree with " resistance " causing heat as you describe

but isn't your hand insulated from such an effect of a battery heating up ?

and wouldn't that insulation protect the heated battery from " wind chill " ?
01-02-2021, 07:25 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by aslyfox Quote
hmm - - I haven't noticed that on any camera I have used



I agree 100 %
The OP noted that his battery was cooler due to the wind. It might not be much but will happen.
Although it might not be called wind chill when applied to electronics it is the same principle.

01-02-2021, 07:29 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by slartibartfast01 Quote
It does if it is on, and the battery definitely warms up with use.
Actually, I experimented a bit and extended the power on period to 30 minutes with exactly that in mind. It "solved" the problem outbound so I suspect you may have something. Had no probs inbound.

My confusion is, as mentioned above, it never occurred to me that wind chill affected dry, solid objects. I've lived in cold-to-extremely-cold climes most of my life. Newfoundland adds extreme humidity as well.
01-02-2021, 08:08 AM - 2 Likes   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by jgnfld Quote
Does wind chill mean anything to a Pentax?
Maybe not Pentax... but as sure hell affects the Old Kerrowdown.
01-02-2021, 08:09 AM - 4 Likes   #13
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Wind, Wind Chill, and Cameras

QuoteOriginally posted by jgnfld Quote
My question: Does "wind chill" and/or possibly humidity issues as well actually MEAN anything to a KP and it's battery (or any other Pentax or DSLR cameras)?
I would have loved to have joined you on that trek. Cape Spear -- one of Canada's greatest locations, IMO. Even in that harsh Newfoundland weather!

"Wind chill" or the "wind chill index" applies to humans and animals. The index gives an indication of the cooling sensation caused by windy conditions on a cold day. Wind removes the thin layer of relatively warm air that is close to our skin and also evaporates any moisture on the skin. So, we feel colder in the wind.

"Wind chill" doesn't apply to inanimate objects such as cameras. However, wind affects the rate at which objects cool. Objects can cool to the ambient temperature but not lower, but equipment such as cameras that generate internal heat may not necessarily cool to the ambient temperature. For example, if the outdoor temperature is, say, minus 5 degrees Celsius, the camera that you just took out of your warm car will begin to cool, but may stabilize at a temperature higher than the air temp if you are shooting lots of pictures. The higher the wind speed, the faster the rate of cooling. Think of our personal computers that use fans to help cool the electronics.

Your camera may have cooled faster to a lower temperature while you were on the outbound trek, as it was exposed to the wind. Your body would have sheltered the camera somewhat on your northbound return, thus lessening the cooling effect.

Pentax cameras have internal temperature sensors. Certain temperature data is recorded in the MakerNotes data that is embedded in image files (e.g., Camera Temp), and may be read using an EXIF extraction program such as ExifTool or ExifToolGUI. It would be interesting to see what the internal temperatures were under the various conditions of the hike (e.g., start of trek outbound; end of outbound; end of return). On some of my winter photo outings, the internal temps of my K-3 II dropped to just below freezing (minus 2-3 C) even though the outdoor air temp was minus 15 C.

For those interested, more information on the wind chill index may be found at these Canadian and US government sites:

Wind chill index - Canada.ca

Wind Chill Questions

Canada took the lead to promote an international standard for wind chill, and collaborated with the United States to establish the current index. Foundational research and experiments on human volunteers were conducted at the Toronto laboratory of Defence Research and Development Canada.

- Craig

Last edited by c.a.m; 01-02-2021 at 09:03 AM.
01-02-2021, 09:45 AM   #14
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THANKS! While I knew about the weather service defn's in Canada, etc., I never thought it applied to nonliving things in terms of temps. I had no idea about temp values being stored down in the exifs. I will check that out in a bit!

Today is clear and colder but under a polar high. I'd expect no problems from the temps, but the light under such conditions can be REALLY harsh until golden hour which is really closer to golden 2 hours right now with the low sun angle.

Re. other responses, I have a battery grip available, I just hate carrying it further than 3 or 4 klicks what with all my other winter gear. You need to be really prepared here. (If you work in weather/environment in Ottawa you may remember those Russian tourists taking a day hike down to Great Harbor Deep some years ago in late October as I remember. Some of their bones have been even been found.)

Cape Spear is only what...call it 8 klicks from the city centre and the nearest cell tower is much closer only about 6 klicks. Sadly, though it is high up, it is behind 3 successive high ridges from the trail--as a result cell service is very intermittent along the East Coast Trail even that close to the city. No easy mechanized access except helicopter along much of the trail. I carry full back country gear plus a PLB when going even there even so close to the city. The East Coast Trail the other way--from Qidi Vidi up to the Marine Lab--is a 10K coastal hike almost all of which is within a few klicks of cell towers and suburban development but almost all of which is also out of cell tower contact and any mechanized access at all except for a road to a sewer outfall about at the halfway point behind the city landfill. This makes any packed/carried pounds a real issue even though I am reasonably fit.

Last edited by jgnfld; 01-02-2021 at 12:53 PM.
01-02-2021, 10:14 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by jgnfld Quote
it never occurred to me that wind chill affected dry, solid objects
c.a.m.'s post above is good, solid information, but I will add that the insulation surrounding the battery innards will slow down the rate at which its heat energy will dissipate to a colder environment. Wind moves the warm air surrounding a heat source and a discharging battery is a heat source, but if the camera battery is kept well insulated or close to another heat source (such as your own body), the rate at which its power output drops is much lower. I did a test at -37C last winter (windchill -50C) and discovered that the battery doesn't so much lose its stored potential energy as the output voltage drops below what the camera requires to operate properly. Extra batteries won't do much good if they aren't kept warm, even on a full charge, but if you are able to warm up what appears to be a dead battery, you can continue shooting.

I'm not a fan of windchill ratings myself, we can get some horrific windchill ratings here on the prairies (my personal best is -64C); good clothing and keeping your eyes, nose and mouth from being exposed to the wind will allow you to operate for several hours without ill effect.

Last edited by RGlasel; 01-02-2021 at 10:24 AM.
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