Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
06-18-2021, 02:36 PM   #31
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Melbourne Australia
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,356
QuoteOriginally posted by photogem Quote
Any statement or claim
Try reading what I actually posted not what you think I posted.

QuoteOriginally posted by photogem Quote
You drained your CMOS that low that you had to set the time again.
By leaving the battery out LONGER than overnight! Might have been a few days. Re-read my post.

QuoteOriginally posted by photogem Quote
That's wishfull thinking.
Why would Pentax design a camera where the RTC (Real Time Clock not CMOS) battery would go flat while charging the only battery?

QuoteOriginally posted by photogem Quote
Your CMOS battery is near an anorexic state.
The internal batteries in both my K7 and K3 still work as intended.

QuoteOriginally posted by photogem Quote
You didn't understand that either:
The AC-Adapter cannot charge the battery! I thought I made that quite clear.
I never said it did! I said you do not need to have the camera on an AC adapter while charging the (main) battery overnight. However I suspect you're wrong as the charging circuit for the internal battery is on the main board which is powered by the AC adapter. But I haven't tested it so I will not say it charges.

06-18-2021, 02:56 PM   #32
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,505
QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Glad you tested that. Thanks! (assuming you mean the backup CMOS battery which might already topped off when the main battery is removed and may not be the source of clock power until then).
No, I meant the main = Li-Ion:
QuoteOriginally posted by photogem Quote
.....@stevebrot: The AC adapters won't charge the main (Li-Ion) battery, so I question it will charge the CMOS.
The CMOS might be charged when the camera is switched on. I never tested that.
The Li-Ion can only be charged with the external charger which makes sense because hardly anybody uses the AC-Adapter. If the AC-Adapter could
charge the Li-Ion, the Pentax would be larger and heavier, nobody wants that really.


QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
I suspect the only way to know for sure might be with a patent search where these things are spelled out using state diagrams.
Indeed!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QuoteOriginally posted by alfa75ts Quote
Try reading what I actually posted not what you think I posted.
You mean this one:
QuoteOriginally posted by alfa75ts Quote
Pretty sure the spec sheet I saw said 100 but maybe not.
Here (again!) the spec-sheet:
MS414GE | Seiko Instruments Inc. Micro Energy Division

QuoteOriginally posted by alfa75ts Quote
The internal batteries in both my K7 and K3 still work as intended.
But this answer of yours does not indicated "work as intended:
QuoteOriginally posted by alfa75ts Quote
I have left the camera (K7, K3) without a battery overnight hundreds of times without a problem. I have left it longer than that once or twice and had to reset the clock but the internal battery recharged after putting a charged battery in (the internal battery may not have been completely flat).
I'd say this is not really intended. IMO it is a pain having to reset ones settings.

QuoteOriginally posted by alfa75ts Quote
I never said it did! I said you do not need to have the camera on an AC adapter while charging the (main) battery overnight. However I suspect you're wrong as the charging circuit for the internal battery is on the main board which is powered by the AC adapter. But I haven't tested it so I will not say it charges.
Do you actually have that AC-Adapter?


As I answered to Steve, I guess the AC-Adapter "might charge" the CMOS when the camera is on, but that was not your nor my point.
My only point was, that the AC-Adapter does NOT CHARGE THE MAIN BATTERY (Li-Ion). Nothing else.
Hardly anybody uses the AC-Adapter.

As much as the main li-ion is not charged, as much the CMOS won't be charged
if you have the camera switched off without a Li-Ion inside (or Eneloop etc. if another Pentax body).


If you have the Li-Ion inside, it charges the CMOS even if the camera is switched off!
Thats the whole point! Nothing else.

All the rest is useless and misleading. This is not about who argues better or wins some silly arguing race!
This is about verifying and giving Pentax-users the correct information!

That is why I started this thread before this one here started:
Maintainance of CMOS or memory or backup-battery - PentaxForums.com

And funny enough quite soon a person has exactly that problem.

In this thread you also can read the correct specs of the MS414 which you were so sure:
QuoteOriginally posted by alfa75ts Quote
Pretty sure the spec sheet I saw said 100 but maybe not.
while right in front of your nose there are the specs with a clear 50x!!!

May I suggest we leave it with this?

The TO had important questions and maybe can recharge the CMOS with some luck, if not it possibly is too expensive to get it repaired.

Last edited by photogem; 06-18-2021 at 03:27 PM.
06-18-2021, 05:00 PM   #33
Moderator
Not a Number's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 10,509
QuoteOriginally posted by photogem Quote
K7/K5 and K3 use the SEIKO MS518 which has almost double the capacity of the MS414GE.
Ok so the MS515SE has twice the capacity of the MS414. So 100× vs 50× expected cycles from 100% depth of discharge. So alfa75ts is indeed correct in saying 100× since this thread is about the K-3 which uses the MS515 and not the MS414. He may have gotten the batteries confused. I myself didn't realize different batteries were be used until now.

MS518SE | Seiko Instruments Inc. Micro Energy Division

Last edited by Not a Number; 06-18-2021 at 05:08 PM.
06-18-2021, 07:26 PM   #34
Otis Memorial Pentaxian
stevebrot's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vancouver (USA)
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 42,007
QuoteOriginally posted by photogem Quote
The Li-Ion can only be charged with the external charger which makes sense because hardly anybody uses the AC-Adapter.
I own the bargain HQRP compatible AC adapter and it definitely charges nothing in the camera, though it does supply 8.3V 2A DC through a Hirose connector to the power the camera. I bought it for interval work and am in the process of incorporating it as charger for a TrustFire EB03 waterproof battery box with six 18650 cells (3.7V 3500mAh) in a 3px2s configuration. Output with full charge is 8.4V into 2A with about 10 hours capacity. That should prove useful for off-grid astro and interval work. When I have the cabling all soldered up, I will post a DIY article with the details.

At present, it makes for a handy phone charger.

Total cost including the cells has been about $75 USD. The project has been fun so far, though I may yet cave-in and get a Omni20 power bank since it is more flexible at about $200 USD, but not waterproof.


Steve

06-18-2021, 10:18 PM   #35
Forum Member




Join Date: Nov 2014
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 87
I didn’t think of this before and checked my date info and is current except had to update to DLST. I did reset date a couple months ago.
06-18-2021, 11:37 PM   #36
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,505
QuoteOriginally posted by doroth2 Quote
So, yesterday I put in a freshly charged battery, set the date and time, and turned the camera off. Today, it remembers the date and time! Woohoo! Hopefully it keeps remembering.
Good News!

Keep us informed if it stays like that!

If necessary repeat a few times leaving your K-3 switched ON (in Menu Auto-Power-Setting set so it won't automatically switch off)
for a few hours. The C-MOS needs a lot of time to fully recharge!
06-19-2021, 02:18 AM   #37
Pentaxian
35mmfilmfan's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Norfolk, UK
Posts: 4,255
QuoteOriginally posted by photogem Quote
Good News!

Keep us informed if it stays like that!

If necessary repeat a few times leaving your K-3 switched ON (in Menu Auto-Power-Setting set so it won't automatically switch off)
for a few hours. The C-MOS needs a lot of time to fully recharge!
If I am ever in this situation (hopefully not), to keep the camera from automatically turning off as suggested, would it be a good idea to power it via the mains adapter, so as not to deplete the in-camera batteries ?

06-19-2021, 02:44 AM   #38
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,505
QuoteOriginally posted by 35mmfilmfan Quote
If I am ever in this situation (hopefully not), to keep the camera from automatically turning off as suggested, would it be a good idea to power it via the mains adapter, so as not to deplete the in-camera batteries ?
It might work but I am not sure, if the AC-Adapter charges the CMOS when powered on.

It would make sense though.


Pentax bodies ... as far as I know... switch off early enough if the Li-Ion (or Eneloops or other AA's) are not yet near a dangerous low point.
The real danger is of course that while the Li-Ion is in the camera and low, the CMOS will drain energy from it and can deplete it.
Though a regular check and knowledge about how good the Li-Ion is ... is of good value.
06-19-2021, 03:19 AM   #39
Pentaxian
35mmfilmfan's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Norfolk, UK
Posts: 4,255
Sorry, I did not make myself clear - I meant to avoid depleting the Li-on batteries, not the CMOS battery, or does using the mains adapter not act in a similar way to powering the body via the Li-on (or, as you say, AA) batteries ?
06-19-2021, 03:40 AM - 1 Like   #40
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 3,505
QuoteOriginally posted by 35mmfilmfan Quote
Sorry, I did not make myself clear - I meant to avoid depleting the Li-on batteries, not the CMOS battery, or does using the mains adapter not act in a similar way to powering the body via the Li-on (or, as you say, AA) batteries ?
No no, you made yourself clear, that's what I understood.

Using the AC-Adapter is fine, I use it for service or longer video or situations where I don't want to risk that the camera shuts off due to the main battery being drained too much.
For example when I brought myself to learn how to record videos (I am not into videos but sometimes it might be useful).
Or when I use PKTether. I don't want to watch then the state of the battery and I don't at all want to be surprised with the camera all the sudden switch off.


I haven't yet tested if having the camera powered on all time will charge the CMOS.
Maybe there will be a chance to do so.
06-19-2021, 03:44 AM   #41
Pentaxian
35mmfilmfan's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Norfolk, UK
Posts: 4,255
Ok, thanks very much.
06-19-2021, 06:20 AM   #42
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Norway
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 702
I have done some measurments and on a K-7 and a Q7 the internal battery is only charged when the camera is on. And it charges very slow. When the camera is off, about 60uA is drawn from the main battery. This is not enough to charge the internal battery, but enough to power the internal clock. The main battery is 1860mAh and can deliver 60uA for 1300 days before it is completely empty.
A MS414 can supply 60uA for 30 hours.

Edit: Current on a K-3 is also 60uA

Last edited by StigVidar; 06-19-2021 at 08:52 AM.
06-19-2021, 07:01 AM   #43
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Near Charlotte NC
Photos: Albums
Posts: 694
QuoteOriginally posted by StigVidar Quote
I have done some measuerments and on a K-7 and a Q7 the internal battery is only charged when the camera is on. And it charges very slow. When the camera is off, about 60uA is drawn from the main battery. This is not enough to charge the internal battery, but enough to power the internal clock. The main battery is 1860mAh and can deliver 60uA for 1300 days before it is completely empty.
A MS414 can supply 60uA for 30 days.
That is logical; the main battery "maintains" the state of charge of the internal battery by furnishing power to the clock.
No "main" battery and the clock will discharge the internal battery in 30 hours(or less, depending on the state of the battery).

This also confirms what I have seen empirically in Pentax electronic cameras of several types and models.

The "moral" of the story is keep a charged main battery in your Pentax camera, AND use it often to keep the internal battery charged!

Thanks for the post and information.

Last edited by DonV; 06-19-2021 at 11:25 AM.
06-19-2021, 08:54 AM   #44
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Norway
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 702
QuoteOriginally posted by DonV Quote
That is logical; the main battery "maintains" the state of charge of the internal battery by furnishing power to the clock.
No "main" battery and the clock will discharge the internal battery in 30 days(or less, depending on the state of the battery).

This also confirms what I have seen empirically in Pentax electronic cameras of several types and models.

The "moral" of the story is keep a charged main battery in your Pentax camera, AND use it often to keep the internal battery charged!

Thanks for the post and information.
I wrote days instead og hours. MS414 can deliver 60uA for 30 hours before it is empty
06-19-2021, 05:10 PM   #45
Moderator
Not a Number's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Venice, CA
Posts: 10,509
Anybody know what Real-Time Clock chips are being used? One could look up the power consumption on them.

The MS518 used in the K-3 (according to photogem) is rated with a nominal capacity of 3.4 mAh. The MS414 has a rated nominal capacity of 2.0 mAh.

@ 0.06mA this works out to 56.67 and 33.33 hours for the MS518 and MS414 respectively. I guess this is close enough to the two days mentioned in the Hoya FAQ for the K-x.

If the Optio 7s clock draws the same 0.06mA and uses the MS412 with a nominal capacity of 1.0 mAh we're looking at a runtime of around 16.67 which I suppose isn't too far off from "one day" listed in the Hoya FAQ.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
ac, battery, camera, charge, charges, cmos, date, date every time, else, k3, k3 forgetting date, li-ion, pentax help, photography, specs, time, troubleshooting
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My K-3 keeps forgetting time and date Pål Jensen Pentax K-3 & K-3 II 48 12-01-2021 02:41 AM
k-01 asking for date every time I turn it on ZombieArmy Pentax K-01 18 11-24-2018 05:12 AM
K3 little problem - forgetting date Znarf Troubleshooting and Beginner Help 4 07-20-2018 11:48 AM
Sigma 18-35mm and 35mm forgetting about AF Conqueror Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 5 12-31-2014 04:26 AM
Original Q: Date and Time resets every time I charge the battery? Senduy Pentax Q 3 12-29-2014 12:47 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:41 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top