Clackers Beginners Tip 6: RAW image formats

**clackers** · 01-27-2022, 04:25 PM - **10 Likes**

It's the time of year for home entertaining, and getting a good vibe in the room is so important. I think we all know to look out for someone a little quiet, and give them something to do such as serving drinks or bringing around platters. In the case of very shy guests, I find it best to give them a job out the back such as washing the glasses, lest they kill the mood by intermingling with others.

There are awkward conversation topics that should be avoided, too. Sex, religion and politics may be divisive. Also, marital disharmony is not appropriate unless the subjects are out of the room and you keep your voice down.

RAW versus JPG is an awkward topic. Traditionally, beginners will shoot JPGs, because they're 'ready' to display and distribute without processing. They take up less space and the camera does them faster. Beginners wanting to be able to really control the colours, brightness, white balance, sharpness and noise grain to their liking in individual areas rather than let the camera choose its own global settings for them may end up shooting RAW as well, so they can postprocess as much as the original sensor capture allowed.

Pentax offer two formats in the settings of their various bodies, PEF and Adobe's digital negative, the DNG file. Once upon a time the PEF had an advantage in being compressed, but these days, they're functionally identical. DNGs are more widely supported in the software world.

Adobe products leave the PEF files in place and changes happen in a second accompanying file that you now have to consider in the future - backing up for instance. If preserving the file as much as possible in the future is all important, an option is to export each picture for archiving as a TIFF file with Kodak's ProPhoto RGB colour space.

A final tip on hosting ... introduce guests to each other with some information. "Edith's husband has left her for a Latvian girl half his age" or "Steve's just coming off a bankruptcy". You can then smile and attend to the cheese fondue, knowing that you've kicked off the conversation for them.

The rest of the series here: Clackers' Beginners Tips (Collected) - PentaxForums.com

Attached Images

Last edited by clackers; 04-14-2022 at 09:23 PM.

**AggieDad** · 01-27-2022, 05:08 PM - **4 Likes**

@Clackers – Good tip as always. So many new photographers do not even know about RAW files, but they have seen JPGs for years and simply default to that format.

Okay. Enough about photography. Tell us a little more a Edith's husband's new friend. Does she have any sisters?

**clackers** · 01-27-2022, 05:25 PM - **5 Likes**

Originally posted by AggieDad

Tell us a little more a Edith's husband's new friend. Does she have any sisters?

There seem to be so many on the Internet, AggieDad, I keep sending them money for air tickets but I still haven't met any of them, they're always temporarily delayed. I'm just unlucky, I guess!

**UncleVanya** · 01-27-2022, 06:01 PM - **2 Likes**

I used jpg and post processed it when I only had a chromebook. It was a long time ago in Internet time (8 years?). I found it possible to do quite a bit, raw offers better control but I think people under estimate what you can accomplish with jpg.

**c.a.m** · 01-27-2022, 06:10 PM - **2 Likes**

I can vouch for the benefits of working with RAW files. The range and precision of control is generally greater than with JPEG files, especially for white balance.

I think that Pentax cameras -- the modern ones, anyways -- can produce decent JPEG files, especially if the user takes time to set up the various in-camera corrections, effects, and Custom Image touches to their taste.

Shooting in RAW+ (RAW + JPEG) is another option.

@clackers, would you have a point of contact for Edith's ex-husband? I'm just asking on behalf of one of my friends.

- Craig

**clackers** · 01-27-2022, 06:41 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by c.a.m

would you have a point of contact for Edith's ex-husband?

Well, I think he might need to sleep on your couch after the divorce comes through and his mistress eventually leaves him, Craig!

biz-engineer · 01-27-2022, 10:48 PM

Since we are in the shooting of the trouble section, I have a problem. I always set my K1 RAW to DNG, but for some reason it switched from DNG to PEF, I ended up with hundred of images in PEF format, while I originally selected DNG. And I can't remember what made the camera switch from DNG to PEF. I searched the forum, found that other forum members had the same issue, but no solution was offered. What makes the Pentax camera switch from DNG to PEF after you set it to DNG?

**clackers** · 01-27-2022, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Since we are in the shooting of the trouble section, I have a problem. I always set my K1 RAW to DNG, but for some reason it switched from DNG to PEF, I ended up with hundred of images in PEF format, while I originally selected DNG. And I can't remember what made the camera switch from DNG to PEF. I searched the forum, found that other forum members had the same issue, but no solution was offered. What makes the Pentax camera switch from DNG to PEF after you set it to DNG?

A User Mode you have, perhaps, BE?

I have never seen this happen.

**Joetitch** · 01-28-2022, 01:12 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Since we are in the shooting of the trouble section, I have a problem. I always set my K1 RAW to DNG, but for some reason it switched from DNG to PEF, I ended up with hundred of images in PEF format, while I originally selected DNG. And I can't remember what made the camera switch from DNG to PEF. I searched the forum, found that other forum members had the same issue, but no solution was offered. What makes the Pentax camera switch from DNG to PEF after you set it to DNG?

One of the pixies got bored with sprinkling the pixi dust and wanted to play a practical joke?????
Or maybe a firmware update glitched and switched it???

biz-engineer · 01-28-2022, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by clackers

A User Mode you have, perhaps, BE?

Well, I checked my user modes and they all have the RAW DNG setting. It's OOT, but another user opened a thread here a couple years back and he said he did some astro shots or something, and after that he had PEF instead of DNG. And I recall something similar but I can't recall the exact thing I did to have the camera revert to PEF. For a couple of years I had no issue, but recently I have hundreds of images in PEF format. That's a problem because I use Silkypix and Sylkypix is only able to handle pixel shift if the format is DNG. If the format is PEF, Silkypix ignores pixel shift and just take one frame.

---------- Post added 28-01-22 at 09:58 ----------

Originally posted by Joetitch

Or maybe a firmware update glitched and switched it???

That's something I checked. Yes there was a firmware upgrade, but I checked the date in exif at which PEF format started, and the date was before the firmware update, so the camera switch from DNG to PEF wasn't triggered by the firmware update. I've checked the K1 manual to see if there are some restrictions to the use of RAW DNG but haven't found anything relevant. Still now , that DNG to PEF switch is a mystery.

Dartmoor Dave · 01-28-2022, 02:02 AM - **5 Likes**

Originally posted by clackers

It's the time of year for home entertaining, and getting a good vibe in the room is so important. I think we all know to look out for someone a little quiet, and give them something to do such as serving drinks or bringing around platters. In the case of very shy guests, I find it best to give them a job out the back such as washing the glasses, lest they kill the mood by intermingling with others.

A classic case of extravert tyranny! You're shy-shaming all introverts with these demands that we must submit to your chatty, party-loving hegemony. As far as I'm concerned, we introverts must reject the oppressive imposition of forced party chat and celebrate our difference. I demand my right to sit alone in the corner looking bored!

INTROVERTS OF THE WORLD UNITE!!!! Except we won't. . . because we're introverts.

(Don't worry, I've got my tongue firmly in cheek here. Although I'm quite extravert online, I'm such an introvert in real life that you'd never even get me to the party in the first place.

)

kypfer · 01-28-2022, 02:50 AM

Originally posted by UncleVanya

… but I think people under estimate what you can accomplish with jpg.

Absolutely … especially if you use the Digital Camera Utility as supplied with most Pentax DSLRs and readily available for download if you've lost (or never had) the CD, or don't have a CD drive on your new computer. (see other threads for installation notes if required)
By "knowing" what camera settings were applied to the jpg at exposure time, DCU can effectively "interpolate back" to what a RAW file probably looked like, then "re-process" it from there.
Obviously, not as total a solution as working directly from an original RAW, but, for most purposes, probably indistinguishable for the end viewer

**GUB** · 01-28-2022, 03:03 AM

Originally posted by kypfer

Absolutely … especially if you use the Digital Camera Utility as supplied with most Pentax DSLRs and readily available for download if you've lost (or never had) the CD, or don't have a CD drive on your new computer. (see other threads for installation notes if required)
By "knowing" what camera settings were applied to the jpg at exposure time, DCU can effectively "interpolate back" to what a RAW file probably looked like, then "re-process" it from there.
Obviously, not as total a solution as working directly from an original RAW, but, for most purposes, probably indistinguishable for the end viewer

I don't see it as a one is better than the other thing.
If you are prepared to muck around and nail your settings while you are shooting then jpg is fine.
I would rather concentrate on the subject and create "best practice" raw material for PPing later.
I enjoy the computer work and enjoy the simplified photo sessions even more.

kypfer · 01-28-2022, 03:12 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by GUB

I don't see it as a one is better than the other thing.
If you are prepared to muck around and nail your settings while you are shooting then jpg is fine.

… been "mucking about" since the early '60's … it's a hard habit to break

My post wasn't about one thing being "better" than another … just agreeing with UncleVanya that a lot can be achieved from a JPG, especially if using the Pentax-supplied software on a Pentax-original JPG

Broadside · 01-28-2022, 10:55 AM

Sounds like a crappy party, until you mention the cheese fondue. Why not lead with that? And the punishments for losing your cube of bread?

I don't know if it's too advanced for a beginner's tip, but is there any chance of a mention for how RAW behaves doing HDR?

It's a while since I've done it, and I don't recall if it's an obscure menu option, but with the KP I was ending up with a single ~87MB dng that had the three images inside it. That needed opening in DCU, the three separate images extracting (from a drop-down menu option IIRC), and then they could be loaded in an HDR editor.

01-27-2022, 04:25 PM - 10 Likes	#1
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Clackers Beginners Tip 6: RAW image formats It's the time of year for home entertaining, and getting a good vibe in the room is so important. I think we all know to look out for someone a little quiet, and give them something to do such as serving drinks or bringing around platters. In the case of very shy guests, I find it best to give them a job out the back such as washing the glasses, lest they kill the mood by intermingling with others. There are awkward conversation topics that should be avoided, too. Sex, religion and politics may be divisive. Also, marital disharmony is not appropriate unless the subjects are out of the room and you keep your voice down. RAW versus JPG is an awkward topic. Traditionally, beginners will shoot JPGs, because they're 'ready' to display and distribute without processing. They take up less space and the camera does them faster. Beginners wanting to be able to really control the colours, brightness, white balance, sharpness and noise grain to their liking in individual areas rather than let the camera choose its own global settings for them may end up shooting RAW as well, so they can postprocess as much as the original sensor capture allowed. Pentax offer two formats in the settings of their various bodies, PEF and Adobe's digital negative, the DNG file. Once upon a time the PEF had an advantage in being compressed, but these days, they're functionally identical. DNGs are more widely supported in the software world. Adobe products leave the PEF files in place and changes happen in a second accompanying file that you now have to consider in the future - backing up for instance. If preserving the file as much as possible in the future is all important, an option is to export each picture for archiving as a TIFF file with Kodak's ProPhoto RGB colour space. A final tip on hosting ... introduce guests to each other with some information. "Edith's husband has left her for a Latvian girl half his age" or "Steve's just coming off a bankruptcy". You can then smile and attend to the cheese fondue, knowing that you've kicked off the conversation for them. The rest of the series here: Clackers' Beginners Tips (Collected) - PentaxForums.com Attached Images Last edited by clackers; 04-14-2022 at 09:23 PM.

01-27-2022, 06:10 PM - 2 Likes	#5
c.a.m Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Ottawa, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,189	I can vouch for the benefits of working with RAW files. The range and precision of control is generally greater than with JPEG files, especially for white balance. I think that Pentax cameras -- the modern ones, anyways -- can produce decent JPEG files, especially if the user takes time to set up the various in-camera corrections, effects, and Custom Image touches to their taste. Shooting in RAW+ (RAW + JPEG) is another option. @clackers, would you have a point of contact for Edith's ex-husband? I'm just asking on behalf of one of my friends. - Craig Last edited by c.a.m; 01-27-2022 at 06:26 PM.

01-28-2022, 01:53 AM	#10
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232	Originally posted by clackers A User Mode you have, perhaps, BE? Well, I checked my user modes and they all have the RAW DNG setting. It's OOT, but another user opened a thread here a couple years back and he said he did some astro shots or something, and after that he had PEF instead of DNG. And I recall something similar but I can't recall the exact thing I did to have the camera revert to PEF. For a couple of years I had no issue, but recently I have hundreds of images in PEF format. That's a problem because I use Silkypix and Sylkypix is only able to handle pixel shift if the format is DNG. If the format is PEF, Silkypix ignores pixel shift and just take one frame. ---------- Post added 28-01-22 at 09:58 ---------- Originally posted by Joetitch Or maybe a firmware update glitched and switched it??? That's something I checked. Yes there was a firmware upgrade, but I checked the date in exif at which PEF format started, and the date was before the firmware update, so the camera switch from DNG to PEF wasn't triggered by the firmware update. I've checked the K1 manual to see if there are some restrictions to the use of RAW DNG but haven't found anything relevant. Still now , that DNG to PEF switch is a mystery. Last edited by biz-engineer; 01-28-2022 at 01:59 AM.

01-28-2022, 02:02 AM - 5 Likes	#11
Dartmoor Dave Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Dartmoor, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,882	Originally posted by clackers It's the time of year for home entertaining, and getting a good vibe in the room is so important. I think we all know to look out for someone a little quiet, and give them something to do such as serving drinks or bringing around platters. In the case of very shy guests, I find it best to give them a job out the back such as washing the glasses, lest they kill the mood by intermingling with others. A classic case of extravert tyranny! You're shy-shaming all introverts with these demands that we must submit to your chatty, party-loving hegemony. As far as I'm concerned, we introverts must reject the oppressive imposition of forced party chat and celebrate our difference. I demand my right to sit alone in the corner looking bored! INTROVERTS OF THE WORLD UNITE!!!! Except we won't. . . because we're introverts. (Don't worry, I've got my tongue firmly in cheek here. Although I'm quite extravert online, I'm such an introvert in real life that you'd never even get me to the party in the first place.)

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01-27-2022, 05:08 PM - 4 Likes	#2
AggieDad Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Houston, TX Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,453	@Clackers – Good tip as always. So many new photographers do not even know about RAW files, but they have seen JPGs for years and simply default to that format. Okay. Enough about photography. Tell us a little more a Edith's husband's new friend. Does she have any sisters?

01-27-2022, 05:25 PM - 5 Likes	#3
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397 Original Poster	Originally posted by AggieDad Tell us a little more a Edith's husband's new friend. Does she have any sisters? There seem to be so many on the Internet, AggieDad, I keep sending them money for air tickets but I still haven't met any of them, they're always temporarily delayed. I'm just unlucky, I guess!

01-27-2022, 06:01 PM - 2 Likes	#4
UncleVanya Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 28,407	I used jpg and post processed it when I only had a chromebook. It was a long time ago in Internet time (8 years?). I found it possible to do quite a bit, raw offers better control but I think people under estimate what you can accomplish with jpg.

01-27-2022, 06:41 PM - 1 Like	#6
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397 Original Poster	Originally posted by c.a.m would you have a point of contact for Edith's ex-husband? Well, I think he might need to sleep on your couch after the divorce comes through and his mistress eventually leaves him, Craig!

01-27-2022, 10:48 PM	#7
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232	Since we are in the shooting of the trouble section, I have a problem. I always set my K1 RAW to DNG, but for some reason it switched from DNG to PEF, I ended up with hundred of images in PEF format, while I originally selected DNG. And I can't remember what made the camera switch from DNG to PEF. I searched the forum, found that other forum members had the same issue, but no solution was offered. What makes the Pentax camera switch from DNG to PEF after you set it to DNG?

01-27-2022, 11:52 PM	#8
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397 Original Poster	Originally posted by biz-engineer Since we are in the shooting of the trouble section, I have a problem. I always set my K1 RAW to DNG, but for some reason it switched from DNG to PEF, I ended up with hundred of images in PEF format, while I originally selected DNG. And I can't remember what made the camera switch from DNG to PEF. I searched the forum, found that other forum members had the same issue, but no solution was offered. What makes the Pentax camera switch from DNG to PEF after you set it to DNG? A User Mode you have, perhaps, BE? I have never seen this happen.

01-28-2022, 01:12 AM	#9
Joetitch Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Leura NSW Posts: 502	Originally posted by biz-engineer Since we are in the shooting of the trouble section, I have a problem. I always set my K1 RAW to DNG, but for some reason it switched from DNG to PEF, I ended up with hundred of images in PEF format, while I originally selected DNG. And I can't remember what made the camera switch from DNG to PEF. I searched the forum, found that other forum members had the same issue, but no solution was offered. What makes the Pentax camera switch from DNG to PEF after you set it to DNG? One of the pixies got bored with sprinkling the pixi dust and wanted to play a practical joke????? Or maybe a firmware update glitched and switched it???

01-28-2022, 02:50 AM	#12
kypfer Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Jersey C.I. Posts: 3,594	Originally posted by UncleVanya … but I think people under estimate what you can accomplish with jpg. Absolutely … especially if you use the Digital Camera Utility as supplied with most Pentax DSLRs and readily available for download if you've lost (or never had) the CD, or don't have a CD drive on your new computer. (see other threads for installation notes if required) By "knowing" what camera settings were applied to the jpg at exposure time, DCU can effectively "interpolate back" to what a RAW file probably looked like, then "re-process" it from there. Obviously, not as total a solution as working directly from an original RAW, but, for most purposes, probably indistinguishable for the end viewer

01-28-2022, 03:03 AM	#13
GUB Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Wanganui Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,760	Originally posted by kypfer Absolutely … especially if you use the Digital Camera Utility as supplied with most Pentax DSLRs and readily available for download if you've lost (or never had) the CD, or don't have a CD drive on your new computer. (see other threads for installation notes if required) By "knowing" what camera settings were applied to the jpg at exposure time, DCU can effectively "interpolate back" to what a RAW file probably looked like, then "re-process" it from there. Obviously, not as total a solution as working directly from an original RAW, but, for most purposes, probably indistinguishable for the end viewer I don't see it as a one is better than the other thing. If you are prepared to muck around and nail your settings while you are shooting then jpg is fine. I would rather concentrate on the subject and create "best practice" raw material for PPing later. I enjoy the computer work and enjoy the simplified photo sessions even more.

01-28-2022, 03:12 AM - 1 Like	#14
kypfer Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Jersey C.I. Posts: 3,594	Originally posted by GUB I don't see it as a one is better than the other thing. If you are prepared to muck around and nail your settings while you are shooting then jpg is fine. … been "mucking about" since the early '60's … it's a hard habit to break My post wasn't about one thing being "better" than another … just agreeing with UncleVanya that a lot can be achieved from a JPG, especially if using the Pentax-supplied software on a Pentax-original JPG

01-28-2022, 10:55 AM	#15
Broadside Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Posts: 86	Sounds like a crappy party, until you mention the cheese fondue. Why not lead with that? And the punishments for losing your cube of bread? I don't know if it's too advanced for a beginner's tip, but is there any chance of a mention for how RAW behaves doing HDR? It's a while since I've done it, and I don't recall if it's an obscure menu option, but with the KP I was ending up with a single ~87MB dng that had the three images inside it. That needed opening in DCU, the three separate images extracting (from a drop-down menu option IIRC), and then they could be loaded in an HDR editor.