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05-21-2022, 08:57 PM - 1 Like   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by MrB1 Quote
Returning to the original point (and ignoring the raw/JPEG discussion):- I don't know the workings of the K-3iii but, if it is similar to a KP, a good starting point for JPEG images might be to set the "Natural" Custom Image, with Saturation, Contrast and Fine Sharpening all changed to +1. To help protect highlights and shadows, I usually use the D-Range settings, with ISO no less than 200. If you haven't yet done so, learn how to use the Histogram, which will help you decide whether any exposure compensation (+ or -) might be needed to improve the image. Hopefully, this post might encourage some K-3iii users to suggest other camera settings for your JPEGs.

Philip
The idea behind the"Natural" category is no enhancement of any parameters, with the possible exception of sharpening. Some Pentax models, especially flagship models, have been shown to have very conservative settings of sharpening, so lab test results indicate softness of JPEG images from the camera, and often these findings are with the camera at default settings, that being the "Bright" category, where its default sharpening level is already up by +1. A few models have been shown to have excessive sharpening set, resulting in smearing of fine detail. A couple of lab reports indicated setting up "Fine Sharpening" resolved this issue. In my case, this is something I have been using with every model I have acquired over numerous years anyway.

Therefore, if one follows the advice in the above post, that is, selecting the "Natural" category" then increasing contrast, and color saturation, as well as sharpening aspects, one is then simply making the "Natural" setting resemble the default settings in the "Bright" category. Maybe if dong this with this particular model results in a more pleasing natural result, because this model's sensor natively produces images of a more subdued nature, then this adjustment for the "Natural" category for THIS model might be appropriate. If this is so, then adding the same increases in the "Bright" category, over its own default settings should be in order.

I have found my KP (I have two) produce very well-balanced JPEG images. "Natural" is very natural, and "Bright" is more punchy, but unlike other previous models, not all that oversaturated, making switching to "Natural" possibly less needed for people shots. However, just how saturated or contrasty is also a matter of taste, but keep in mind, increasing contrast and also increasing highlight and shadow protection are sort of self cancelling. Those two protection settings also reduce contrast.

There seems to be some confusion regarding these settings and shooting RAW files. My impressions have been, whatever the Custom Image category selected, or settings within their menus, are for JPEG images out of the camera ONLY, and do not pertain to or affect RAW files. Also, that depending on which RAW processing software is used, these in-camera settings could be optionally used as part of the RAW processing, or not used at all.

---------- Post added 05-21-22 at 08:59 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Is this where having several “user modes” set up in advance comes in??
I have not done it, but sounds like a good idea!


Last edited by mikesbike; 05-21-2022 at 09:18 PM.
05-21-2022, 10:21 PM - 3 Likes   #47
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Starting to get this (I think)
Took RAW + (satobi was JPG choice)
Put RAW into DxO (did trial)
Did the lens correction thing and got more fine detail
Used exiftool to get the lens info into it
Open that in DCU
Saved as satobi (and it looked like the jpg satobi, so a confidence booster)
Here it is!
05-22-2022, 04:56 AM - 1 Like   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikesbike Quote
The idea behind the"Natural" category is no enhancement of any parameters, with the possible exception of sharpening. Some Pentax models, especially flagship models, have been shown to have very conservative settings of sharpening, so lab test results indicate softness of JPEG images from the camera, and often these findings are with the camera at default settings, that being the "Bright" category, where its default sharpening level is already up by +1. A few models have been shown to have excessive sharpening set, resulting in smearing of fine detail. A couple of lab reports indicated setting up "Fine Sharpening" resolved this issue. In my case, this is something I have been using with every model I have acquired over numerous years anyway.

Therefore, if one follows the advice in the above post, that is, selecting the "Natural" category" then increasing contrast, and color saturation, as well as sharpening aspects, one is then simply making the "Natural" setting resemble the default settings in the "Bright" category. Maybe if dong this with this particular model results in a more pleasing natural result, because this model's sensor natively produces images of a more subdued nature, then this adjustment for the "Natural" category for THIS model might be appropriate. If this is so, then adding the same increases in the "Bright" category, over its own default settings should be in order.

I have found my KP (I have two) produce very well-balanced JPEG images. "Natural" is very natural, and "Bright" is more punchy, but unlike other previous models, not all that oversaturated, making switching to "Natural" possibly less needed for people shots. However, just how saturated or contrasty is also a matter of taste, but keep in mind, increasing contrast and also increasing highlight and shadow protection are sort of self cancelling. Those two protection settings also reduce contrast.

There seems to be some confusion regarding these settings and shooting RAW files. My impressions have been, whatever the Custom Image category selected, or settings within their menus, are for JPEG images out of the camera ONLY, and do not pertain to or affect RAW files. Also, that depending on which RAW processing software is used, these in-camera settings could use be optionally used as part of the RAW processing, or not used at all.
I don’t remember the KP’s original default settings, but I do remember being advised here to back off the “sharpnesss” setting {I now use “+1” there, which is now true of all of my camera bodies}
05-22-2022, 06:24 AM - 1 Like   #49
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Hello, Mike.

In your first paragraph, I wonder if "The idea behind the 'Natural' category is no enhancement of any parameters..." Is actually the case. The raw data is very bland when converted to an image without parameters, so perhaps 'Flat' is the closer Custom Image style to having no enhancement, as Pentax seem to suggest on the Ricoh web site?

Your second paragraph suggests that selecting the 'Natural' category then increasing contrast, saturation, and sharpening, makes it resemble the default 'Bright' settings. "Resemble" is possibly the case but they are not the same. If you set those parameters (i.e. +1) in 'Natural', and alternate the rear screen view with default 'Bright', the colour wheel changes. In particular 'Bright' tends more towards the greens and, for my personal taste I try to avoid what are sometimes described as "radioactive greens!"', while keeping other colours slightly more saturated than in default 'Natural'.

Cheers.
Philip

05-22-2022, 06:40 AM - 1 Like   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by madison_wi_gal Quote
Starting to get this (I think)
Took RAW + (satobi was JPG choice)
Put RAW into DxO (did trial)
Did the lens correction thing and got more fine detail
Used exiftool to get the lens info into it
Open that in DCU
Saved as satobi (and it looked like the jpg satobi, so a confidence booster)
Here it is!
As long as you are happy with it - that is what matters.
05-22-2022, 08:15 AM - 1 Like   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikesbike Quote
I agree. Adjustments made in various Custom Image category menus are done ahead of any shooting outings, and once settled upon do not often need further attention. That said, sometimes conditions might suggest a switch to a different category. This is actually an advantage over film. Let's say we were shooting some scenics with a 35mm film body and Fuji ASA 50 Velvia slide film. Noted for being very colorful, very well-saturated colors. However, not the best for skin tone, often making people look too flushed. Instead of having to switch film in mid roll when some people arrive to be included, with a Pentax DSLR, if the usual "Bright" category makes skin tones too flushed, we can simply switch to "Natural" in a flash. And I have found there are native differences in color reproduction, as well as other parameters, between different models. Therefore, whether or not this switch might be beneficial could also depend on which model is being used. These considerations also relate to another posting-
I'm nearly certain this guy is adjusting JPEG parameters in the field when needed, and with excellent effect.
The Works of Light | Takumichi Seo with PENTAX : The Memory of light / explore | RICOH IMAGING

I don't recall now who originally linked it, but it's a convincing example of how adjusting JPEG settings in the field can be to your advantage. It doesn't need to be a regular thing, but also not something that should be avoided if time is on your side and you recognize a way of better capturing the emotion of light in front of you.
05-22-2022, 08:25 AM - 1 Like   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by madison_wi_gal Quote
Starting to get this (I think)
Took RAW + (satobi was JPG choice)
Put RAW into DxO (did trial)
Did the lens correction thing and got more fine detail
Used exiftool to get the lens info into it
Open that in DCU
Saved as satobi (and it looked like the jpg satobi, so a confidence booster)
Here it is!
Yes you're definitely on the road to understanding, and pretty darn quickly too! You're doing great.

05-22-2022, 09:21 AM - 1 Like   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
I'm nearly certain this guy is adjusting JPEG parameters in the field when needed, and with excellent effect.
The Works of Light | Takumichi Seo with PENTAX : The Memory of light / explore | RICOH IMAGING

I don't recall now who originally linked it, but it's a convincing example of how adjusting JPEG settings in the field can be to your advantage. It doesn't need to be a regular thing, but also not something that should be avoided if time is on your side and you recognize a way of better capturing the emotion of light in front of you.
There is a big difference between an artist switching to a different cohesive collection of stored settings and some guy trying to choose individual effects in the middle of a sports event when he admittedly doesn't have time for it. madison_wi_gal is doing the right thing - thinking about it when not 'under the gun'.
05-22-2022, 09:26 AM - 1 Like   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
I'm nearly certain this guy is adjusting JPEG parameters in the field when needed, and with excellent effect.
The Works of Light | Takumichi Seo with PENTAX : The Memory of light / explore | RICOH IMAGING

I don't recall now who originally linked it, but it's a convincing example of how adjusting JPEG settings in the field can be to your advantage. It doesn't need to be a regular thing, but also not something that should be avoided if time is on your side and you recognize a way of better capturing the emotion of light in front of you.
There is a video of Seo demonstrating a new camera which shows him adjusting jpg settings frequently and extensively. I cannot find it now but it is probably on the Ricoh site. I doubt if I would be willing/able to do that but is seems to work well for him. At the time someone commented that there seemed to be more jpg use and adjustment in Japan than elsewhere.
05-22-2022, 07:36 PM - 1 Like   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
{I now use “+1” there, which is now true of all of my camera bodies}
Same with me, for the KP. With it, the default for "Bright" being +1 by default, so I just, as always, implement Fine Sharpening, and make equal other categories as well. My K-1 II is different, as its highest quality JPEG images are a bit soft at default settings, meaning the "Bright" category. Its default with the "Bright" category is the typical +1, so I increase that up one more to +2, and equalize other categories I might use, even though their default might be at 0, then increasing to +2. One exception is the "Portrait" category, being that razor sharpness might not bring the most pleasing result. I might leave that at 0 or maybe +1, which is still a bit soft, but not as much so as 0. This decision depends on the subject's features.

---------- Post added 05-22-22 at 07:43 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by MrB1 Quote
Hello, Mike.

In your first paragraph, I wonder if "The idea behind the 'Natural' category is no enhancement of any parameters..." Is actually the case. The raw data is very bland when converted to an image without parameters, so perhaps 'Flat' is the closer Custom Image style to having no enhancement, as Pentax seem to suggest on the Ricoh web site?

Your second paragraph suggests that selecting the 'Natural' category then increasing contrast, saturation, and sharpening, makes it resemble the default 'Bright' settings. "Resemble" is possibly the case but they are not the same. If you set those parameters (i.e. +1) in 'Natural', and alternate the rear screen view with default 'Bright', the colour wheel changes. In particular 'Bright' tends more towards the greens and, for my personal taste I try to avoid what are sometimes described as "radioactive greens!"', while keeping other colours slightly more saturated than in default 'Natural'.

Cheers.
Philip
Yes, I agree the color palette is different. I didn't know about the green, but it seems each model is somewhat different regarding color also. In some models, I have seen users report switching to "natural" because of skin tones looking too red in the "Bright" category, and have occasionally done so myself, though not as likely with the KP.

Last edited by mikesbike; 05-22-2022 at 07:44 PM.
05-23-2022, 09:58 AM - 1 Like   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by madison_wi_gal Quote
OOOOOOOO!!

More cool! OK, so RAW+. = RAW to card 1 JPG to card 2, in-camera image stabilization and multi-auto white balance on, TAv with ISO pegged at [???]. Set SOOC settings to whatever I feel like and see what happens?

****************

Well, OK. I shot my african violet in RAW+. Set the jpg color space to satobi. DNG on card 1 JPG on card 2.

Pulled both into PDCU and the RAW also says satobi. The pics look identical (and nice)

What am i missing?
As to the last question, when you consider all there is to be known, I suspect most of us are missing about 80% or more of everything.

As to the ISO setting; by the way, ISO is an acronym stands for "International Standards Organization", the folks who created the number system to grade photo film sensitivity back in the good ol' days. It doesn't have a whole lot to do with the sensitivity of DSLR sensors - there are lot of Youtubes about the marketing scams manufacturers use to make their products appear better than they are (e.g., Northrop). Pentax uses the word, "sensitivity" in their documents, though retaining "ISO" on the camera controls. We really only use that term now as a sort of analogy to film standards because of historical usage. The implication of all this is that each camera, or at least camera model, is what it is, and you've got to learn how to work it as it is, and not go by some arbitrary "standard".

I set mine max for ISO:Auto to 3200. I find the noise levels unacceptable beyond that for wildlife, birds and such. 6400 for night-time shots. I use the lowest number I can get away with for manual settings, depending on how I've set the shutter speed and aperture, either of which may be dominant in a particular instance. E.g., a macro shot in good like will be controlled by the aperture, since I want to control depth of field more than anything else. Birds flying by get a shutter speed of upwards of 1/1000" and more likely at 1/2500", so of course, that controls what I do with the rest of the settings.

As you do this, you will develop an intuitive feel for how the three important settings relate to each other, and how much of which you need to get the effect you want. Also, for the angle of view you need for a particular composition or style, which will dictate the focal length you need given a particular size of sensor.

So to add my voice to the millions who've already said it, "practice, practice, practice." Loved the violet, by the way.
05-23-2022, 10:18 AM - 1 Like   #57
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Thanks, that violet has gotten a lot of lenses aimed at it while I practice.
05-23-2022, 10:26 AM - 1 Like   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by madison_wi_gal Quote
Thanks, that violet has gotten a lot of lenses aimed at it while I practice.
After a few dozen lenses in it's petals the term "shrinking violet" is probably appropriate.
05-23-2022, 11:35 AM - 1 Like   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by dlhawes Quote
As to the last question, when you consider all there is to be known, I suspect most of us are missing about 80% or more of everything.

As to the ISO setting; by the way, ISO is an acronym stands for "International Standards Organization", the folks who created the number system to grade photo film sensitivity back in the good ol' days. It doesn't have a whole lot to do with the sensitivity of DSLR sensors - there are lot of Youtubes about the marketing scams manufacturers use to make their products appear better than they are (e.g., Northrop). Pentax uses the word, "sensitivity" in their documents, though retaining "ISO" on the camera controls. We really only use that term now as a sort of analogy to film standards because of historical usage. The implication of all this is that each camera, or at least camera model, is what it is, and you've got to learn how to work it as it is, and not go by some arbitrary "standard".

I set mine max for ISO:Auto to 3200. I find the noise levels unacceptable beyond that for wildlife, birds and such. 6400 for night-time shots. I use the lowest number I can get away with for manual settings, depending on how I've set the shutter speed and aperture, either of which may be dominant in a particular instance. E.g., a macro shot in good like will be controlled by the aperture, since I want to control depth of field more than anything else. Birds flying by get a shutter speed of upwards of 1/1000" and more likely at 1/2500", so of course, that controls what I do with the rest of the settings.

As you do this, you will develop an intuitive feel for how the three important settings relate to each other, and how much of which you need to get the effect you want. Also, for the angle of view you need for a particular composition or style, which will dictate the focal length you need given a particular size of sensor.

So to add my voice to the millions who've already said it, "practice, practice, practice." Loved the violet, by the way.
“Sensitivity” setting used entirely depends on your standards and the camera used.

I have a KP, which I am willing to use at previously unbelievable levels,
which finally makes ‘TAv’ mode useful to me, since I limited my K-30 to ISO 100-800.
05-23-2022, 11:43 AM - 2 Likes   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by dlhawes Quote
As to the last question, when you consider all there is to be known, I suspect most of us are missing about 80% or more of everything.

As to the ISO setting; by the way, ISO is an acronym stands for "International Standards Organization", the folks who created the number system to grade photo film sensitivity back in the good ol' days. It doesn't have a whole lot to do with the sensitivity of DSLR sensors

I set mine max for ISO:Auto to 3200. I find the noise levels unacceptable beyond that for wildlife, birds and such. 6400 for night-time shots.
The K3III has a far higher "good" ISO range than any of the other Pentax crop cameras, better than most all other cameras for that matter, assuming I understand this correctly (big IF always!) and that the testing was correct. For comparison Photos to Photos pegs the Low Light ISO Rating on the K3 at 1573, so ISO 1600 essentially. The K-70 is at ISO 5502, the KP is 6067, and then the K3III at a whopping 11443, putting ISO 12800 as the point where noise starts overtaking the images.

I keep mine at 12800 on the max side except when the image is critical, for example portraiture and modeling where I try to max to at 6400 (in-studio of course is entirely different), and early morning wildlife where 25600 is a very acceptable tradeoff for the faster shutter.

As best I can determine the native ISO for my K3III is 160, so in-studio I typically use ISO200 when lighting permits. By the way, the dynamic range of the K3III is amazing, roughly comparable to the full frame K1.

Last edited by gatorguy; 05-23-2022 at 02:23 PM.
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