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06-04-2022, 02:40 PM - 1 Like   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Des Quote

Here we go, with the DA 18-135. I believe the term for parallel lines like this is "nisen bokeh".
Maybe its just me but I love this type of out of focus look

06-04-2022, 03:51 PM - 1 Like   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by GUB Quote
I think this would qualify as "nervous" bokeh. In my opinion it is certainly less than ideal.In this situation I don't think of it as a fault of the lens - rather a combination of the texture of the background and its distance from the subject.
QuoteOriginally posted by GUB Quote
An example of how it is often about the environment rather than about the lens.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ian Stuart Forsyth Quote
Here I have enough separation from the background that the quality of the lens bokeh is less important as there is more separation with the OOF areas
QuoteOriginally posted by RICHARD L. Quote
check for "visual trash" in your out-of-focus background before you trigger the shutter.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The DA 55-300 isn't a wonderful lens, but if you are pretty close to your subject it will smooth out the background.
Good points all. Compositions and separation of subject from background is often the key. It just isn't always possible - e.g. with my perched fairy-wren example, I just had to shoot immediately. And the background wasn't particularly challenging.
QuoteOriginally posted by mikesbike Quote
How did you get such a good example of horrible bokeh from the DA 18-135mm? A certain FL or aperture or both?
Just (lack of) skill, I guess! Shot at 135mm f8 so it shouldn't have been a problem really. I don't mean to suggest that the 18-135 (or the DA L 55-300 f4-5.8) usually produce nisen bokeh, but these were not once-off examples. And nisen bokeh is not easy to deal with in PP.
06-05-2022, 12:10 AM - 2 Likes   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by Waffles Quote
Maybe its just me but I love this type of out of focus look
There we go- it truly is in the eye of the beholder! Might have been a bit better wide open at f/5.6, producing a bit softer blur. And the background was not far enough behind the subject.
06-06-2022, 07:37 AM - 2 Likes   #49
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Swirl?

Another example of not great Bokeh... this from the D FA 100 Macro WR lens:



In this image I don't object to it as I think it somehow fits the main subject in a way.

06-07-2022, 07:45 AM - 1 Like   #50
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'Boke' means 'stupid, unaware or careless'.
More commonly referenced by English speakers as 'bokeh', it refers to the clutter in the background of your image you forgot to think about while you were busy concentrating on your subject. Amateur photographers are often victims of excessive bokeh because it takes time to develop full awareness of everything that might be happening in the frame.

Photo-bombers take advantage of 'bokeh' to insert themselves inappropriately into your image - sometimes improving it. Here's Dave Chapelle 'doing a bokeh':



To avoid bokeh in your pictures, cultivate awareness of everything in shot - in Japanese, we call this 'Kaze-wo Atsumete;.
If you shoot at a wide enough aperture you can blur out unwanted background elements. This technique is called 'toneh'. For an explanation of 'toneh', see here:


Last edited by 169; 06-08-2022 at 01:20 AM.
06-07-2022, 07:47 AM - 1 Like   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Des Quote
What a good question @madison_wi_gal and a typically interesting discussion.

That's true. But the 18-135 can also produce horrible bokeh.

Here we go, with the DA 18-135. I believe the term for parallel lines like this is "nisen bokeh".


It seems to be common with cheap zooms. I used to get it with the DA L 55-300 at times too. (Another reason to stop down with this lens.) Note the bokeh fringing too.


The bokeh is more pleasant and reliable with more recent zooms like the DA 16-85 ...


... or DA 55-300 PLM:


Good article about bokeh here: Understanding Bokeh | B&H eXplora
The 'quality' of your bokeh is neither here nor there - what you've done is allow it to overwhelm the shot by not filling the frame with your subject. Basic error.

---------- Post added 06-07-22 at 07:50 AM ----------

Name me a single great photographer who was interested in 'bokeh'?
06-07-2022, 09:10 AM - 3 Likes   #52
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Long history short: I think that is a matter of personal taste. I like two types of bokeh from lenses:

1. Lenses that produces relatively seamless transitions between in and out of focus areas.
SMC Pentax-FA* 200mm F2.8 ED [IF] @ 2.8


2a Lens that produces clear and smooth bokeh bubbles.
Takumar 6x7 105mm F2.4 perfect solid circles bokeh


2b Tomioka 55mm f1.2 Unique bokeh


06-07-2022, 09:47 AM - 4 Likes   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Thwyllo Quote
The 'quality' of your bokeh is neither here nor there - what you've done is allow it to overwhelm the shot by not filling the frame with your subject. Basic error.

---------- Post added 06-07-22 at 07:50 AM ----------

Name me a single great photographer who was interested in 'bokeh'?
I am not a great photographer, but I am trying to learn to be a good one, and I was interested in the topic. I'm sorry that my thread has annoyed you.
06-07-2022, 10:51 AM - 3 Likes   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by madison_wi_gal Quote
I am not a great photographer, but I am trying to learn to be a good one, and I was interested in the topic. I'm sorry that my thread has annoyed you.
They might just need a lie down.
06-07-2022, 11:27 AM - 2 Likes   #55
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Back in the 1970's I was in Japan when bokeh was all the rage.
It came about because of a small group of very good photographers usually using very basic equipment with very simple lenses, doublets and triplets, created images where nothing was in focus deliberately because they loved the soft blur that these lenses gave, they even moved the camera to maximise blur and other techniques.

Photographer such as
Shomei Tomatsu

Eikoh Hosoe

Daido Moriyama

And others, needless to say most other photgraphers in Japan did not agree and devised the term Bokeh for this effect which in Japanese means idiot, fool or blurry thinking. It is similar to our 'chasing a rainbow', the more you look for it the further away it goes.

Mention Bokeh to a Japanese photographer and he will usually smile knowingly.

Chris
06-07-2022, 12:55 PM - 1 Like   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tiffa Quote
Back in the 1970's I was in Japan when bokeh was all the rage.
It came about because of a small group of very good photographers usually using very basic equipment with very simple lenses, doublets and triplets, created images where nothing was in focus deliberately because they loved the soft blur that these lenses gave, they even moved the camera to maximise blur and other techniques.

Photographer such as
Shomei Tomatsu

Eikoh Hosoe

Daido Moriyama

And others, needless to say most other photgraphers in Japan did not agree and devised the term Bokeh for this effect which in Japanese means idiot, fool or blurry thinking. It is similar to our 'chasing a rainbow', the more you look for it the further away it goes.

Mention Bokeh to a Japanese photographer and he will usually smile knowingly.

Chris
Odd. Quite a few sources seem to disagree with you. This seems like a mistaken interpretation but I donít have local knowledge. I need to consult my friend from school who is Japanese and see what he says. Thanks for the input. Btw here is a source claiming the two meanings are not from the same root words:
Bokeh (photographic term) - japan-guide.com forum
06-07-2022, 01:23 PM - 2 Likes   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
Odd. Quite a few sources seem to disagree with you. This seems like a mistaken interpretation but I donít have local knowledge. I need to consult my friend from school who is Japanese and see what he says. Thanks for the input. Btw here is a source claiming the two meanings are not from the same root words:
Bokeh (photographic term) - japan-guide.com forum
In the original Japanese there is no 'h' in boke it was added by an American author when he sent in an article about it to a magazine. A few years later Amateur Photographer picked up on the article and used the same spelling. Maybe that could alter the meaning.

Chris
06-07-2022, 01:47 PM - 1 Like   #58
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Many, many words in the English language have an ancestral meaning that differs from their contemporary meaning. That is language.
It is generally currently accepted that "bokeh" means "The qualities of the out of focus areas"
And that is all that matters
06-07-2022, 03:03 PM - 1 Like   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by 169 Quote
To avoid bokeh in your pictures, be aware of everything in shoot. If you shoot at a wide enough aperture you can blur out unwanted background elements. This technique is called 'toneh'. For an explanation of 'toneh', see here:
That's hilarious. I'll watch out for Toneh and the amount of hatred it attracts.
QuoteOriginally posted by Waffles Quote
Maybe its just me but I love this type of out of focus look
QuoteOriginally posted by Thwyllo Quote
The 'quality' of your bokeh is neither here nor there - what you've done is allow it to overwhelm the shot by not filling the frame with your subject. Basic error.
This shows how subjective this is.
QuoteOriginally posted by madison_wi_gal Quote
I'm sorry that my thread has annoyed you.
It wasn't your thread - it was my examples!

Last edited by Des; 06-07-2022 at 03:21 PM.
06-07-2022, 04:07 PM - 1 Like   #60
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Bokeh is more an artistic reaction to how a lens performs ... it is not important to me for my photos, but when the out of focus bits are lovely, i am happy!!!
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